[Politics] The General Election Thread

[theonlymikey]

And while I'm here:

General election: Labour cuts Conservatives' poll lead to eight points

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...es-gap-vote-poll-corbyn-johnson-a9205616.html

 

[BLOCK F]

Labour's last manifesto was fully costed so I expect this one to be too. The Tories expect blind faith in their trustworthiness.

Oh ye of great faith.
There is one hell of a difference between a costed manifesto and a delivered end product!
Oh well, we shall see what is promised and what is delivered by one or t'other in due course.

 

[Butch Willykins]

Oh I see, rule changes but no enforcement or implementation.

Up there with the GK holding time rule. The government is ultimately accountable for these things. You'll be telling me local NHS trusts are responsible for the NHS failings next.

Local authorities can enforce the building(s) to be refurbished. I’ve seen it done.

 

[BLOCK F]

You and me put money into the economy after having received education, not to mention healthcare, from the state. It's a circle, not a one way street. And drawing an equivalence between the type of handset and access to broadband is a red herring, as you well know.

The state may not be a saviour but neither is the market.

We obviously need a sensible balance of both the market and the state.
The argument is, what is the optimal balance between the two.
Call me a simpleton, but for this country, I reckon veering to far away from the tried and tested centrist policies we have had for some considerable time, is not the way to go.
Others may disagree and believe that Corbyn and McDonnell have it right.
Personally, I don't think they have.

 

[Bakero]

We obviously need a sensible balance of both the market and the state.
The argument is, what is the optimal balance between the two.
Call me a simpleton, but for this country, I reckon veering to far away from the tried and tested centrist policies we have had for some considerable time, is not the way to go.
Others may disagree and believe that Corbyn and McDonnell have it right.
Personally, I don't think they have.

Nobody is suggesting a command economy. An optimal balance is key.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

How does anyone bring themselves to vote for these evil ********.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/16/priti-patel-block-rescue-british-isis-children

Home secretary Priti Patel intervened to block a recent rescue operation to bring British orphans and unaccompanied minors home from Syria, sources have revealed.

During National Security Council meetings last month and internal discussions, Patel, backed by several other ministers including defence secretary Ben Wallace, objected to the extraction of British children from the war-ravaged country, sources say.

Their opposition meant that a discussed late October rescue operation was abandoned at the last minute because Patel, Wallace and chancellor Sajid Javid felt the children posed “security concerns”.

More than 60 British minors, including at least three orphans, had been identified, and a quick and safe route identified to take them out of north-east Syria and then to Erbil, Iraq, where they would be flown home direct to the UK.

It has also emerged that not only had the extraction plan been prepared but that a number of councils in the UK had offered the care package and reintegration programme necessary for the children following their arrival in the UK.

 

[nicko31]

How does anyone bring themselves to vote for these evil ********.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/16/priti-patel-block-rescue-british-isis-children

Its red meat for the Daily Mail...

 

[nicko31]

Let us hope that all those in favour have public sector or DB pensions, because if McDonnell gets his way and continues his raids on industry, those poor saps whose pension funds depend on the stockmarket are going to take a hit!

TBH anyone with half a brain cell will have a pension well diversified out to the UK by now, whether the Tories or Labour get in we will be a slow growth economy for the foreseeable. Its damage control from here...

Follow the Mogg...

 

[Granny on the wing]

We obviously need a sensible balance of both the market and the state.
The argument is, what is the optimal balance between the two.
Call me a simpleton, but for this country, I reckon veering to far away from the tried and tested centrist policies we have had for some considerable time, is not the way to go.
Others may disagree and believe that Corbyn and McDonnell have it right.
Personally, I don't think they have.

Corbyn and McDonnell are old men with old anti-capitalist ideas from what i can see .

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I wouldn't dream of calling you names, Harry, but as a uni lecturer you no doubt have a nice secure pension, despite recent changes, and will be somewhat sheltered from the financial lunacy of the far left. Some of us are rather more exposed to the danger.
You deluded.......................
Oh sorry, I wasn't going to say that.
Lots of Love,
A prancing ninnie.

I'm more concerned by what Brexit and Boris will do to my pension, and my son's prospects.

You're not a prancing ninny. That quip was targeted, and not at you

I have no issue with folk who have a reasoned basis for opting to vote Tory. It is the tribal 'a pig wearing a blue rosette is good for me' tories, not concerned with facts, truth or honesty, who spend most of their spare time on forums like this, with their relentless propaganda, that get my goat.

And if tories like Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke can oppose Boris, I'll not apologise for backing the only party that can stop all this madness. Still, whether they will, or would, or could, are other issues....

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I was under the impression that they already were to you H.

I have plenty of tory pals. And before the last election I urged people to vote for anyone who would keep Corbyn out (I said this on here). Admittedly my motive was to see Corbyn binned, so that labour could recover its sanity. Right now I regard Boris as more dangerous than Corbyn. And far more odious.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

The Lib Dems are even more fiscally conservative than the Tories now. Vote Lib Dem, get a Tory (wearing either blue or yellow).

 

[Lever]

I have plenty of tory pals. And before the last election I urged people to vote for anyone who would keep Corbyn out (I said this on here). Admittedly my motive was to see Corbyn binned, so that labour could recover its sanity. Right now I regard Boris as more dangerous than Corbyn. And far more odious.

Spot on!
It's hard to imagine how any self respecting tory candidate can make out a case and seek votes to enable that mendacious, narcissistic liar to continue in power.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Haha.

No need to discuss the past, but in the past...

The original point doesn't stand it falls flat on it's face. I didn't bring up the past to score points, someone else brought up the past, and now so are you (while at the same time dismissing the actual things that actually happened in the actual past).

The argument isn't simply about free broadband, I'm sure if broadband were really free nobody would oppose it would they. The issue is about broadband for all, which by the way is the goal of both parties. Some people think that they way you achieve that is by having the state take ownership of businesses. Others think that is a simplistic idea which won't work in practice, and they have a point.

If the state running things makes things better, why don't we have the state produce our mobile phones? Mobile phones are surely a neccessity these days, and there is enourmous mobile phone inequality. Some people have £800 handsets, some people have £50 handsets and can't possibly afford the new iphone or can't meet the conditions of the contracts required to get one.

Imagine for a moment that you no longer chose in a competitive market place between say Apple and Samsung, but instead the state made all mobile phones for the good of society. What do you imagine would happen? Higher quality devices next year? lower prices? great service? When the providers of a product or service are not competing with one another in order to make a profit, where does the incentive to innovate and improve come from? Altruism? Government targets?

The state is not a savior, nothing is free, the only money the state has, all of it, first has to be taken out of the economy, i.e. from you and me. Then we get something back, usually a lot less than what we paid for, after also having paid for the beauracracy, inflated no bid contracts, subsidies, nepotism, general corruption and waste, and a whole bunch of other great stuff.

This was the argument made in the 80s when everything was sold off, services will be more efficient run by private companies, more investment, higher quality, lower prices. Instead we got limited investment, lower quality, higher prices. The argument that private was better than state, in the case of a service provided to all, has been shown to be baloney. So don't repeat the argument now, please.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

The Lib Dems are even more fiscally conservative than the Tories now. Vote Lib Dem, get a Tory (wearing either blue or yellow).

Maybe. But if we vote Lib Dem, we won't get the Brexit Party. So that's a bonus.

 

[Hampster Gull]

The Lib Dems are even more fiscally conservative than the Tories now. Vote Lib Dem, get a Tory (wearing either blue or yellow).

They’re all lying, or playing us, it’s just the Libs haven’t yet got as far up the magic money tree, to use a Tory phrase. But more investment in schools and £20bn a year focused on climate change. Anyway, I’m supporting them for the revoke policy, they rest could be made up by the monster raving looney party for all I care

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

A slightly different question but do you ever wonder where all the dosh will come from to pay for these evermore fantasy promises made by both the Tories and even more so the Labour party?
Most of these spending promises just won't materialise as they will prove, unworkable, unaffordable or both.
Methinks it will all end in tears , disappointment and disillusionment. It is a pity that our political parties are not more honest with the public.

On the Labour side there are higher taxes on some sectors of society, particularly on large business. On both sides there is borrowing, against a forecast richer, better off future.

One difference I suppose, is that after 9 years of austerity, the tories spending promises are cynical, they obviously don't believe in them themselves, and are liable to be reversed on a whim, whereas for Labour its ideological and in fitting with the remodeled economy they foresee. At least they believe...

Fwiw, I like the ideas that Labour have but am of course sceptical, we have been in the current capitalist paradigm for so long it is natural to wonder if this is the usual, or only, order of things. Plus one is rightly sceptical that even if it could work, whether the press would allow it to work for the time necessary.

Something to aspire to, perhaps.

 

[nicko31]

The Lib Dems are even more fiscally conservative than the Tories now. Vote Lib Dem, get a Tory (wearing either blue or yellow).

The Lib Dems more fiscally Conservative than the Tories with the Remain bonus

The Tories in a spending arms race with Labour, with the distinct risk of no deal

Chuck in that the Libs are socially progressive, preserve the UK and are serious about dealing with the biggest threat to mankind, what's not to like?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Yeah, which is why the Guardian supported Corbyn (On 8 June, Labour deserves our vote.) in the 2017 GE and they will do the same in this election.

If you have been following the last three years of posts on the Brexit thread (understandable if you haven't) you would have seen thousands of examples of Corbynistas/Lib dem types pouring contemptous scorn on the unwashed 'thicky gullible masses' because they cast a vote 'the wrong way' in the referendum.

No need for the eye-rolling: it's perfectly possible to be no fan of Corbyn and yet feel a government led by him is preferable to one led by Johnson - not least because the first action of a Johnson government would be damaging, far-reaching, nation-changing and irreversible.

This thicky gullible masses narrative is largely an invention by victimhood-obsessed leavers. It reached tired cliche status long ago. As you well know, the argument made for a second referendum is that people will now know what they are voting for, or indeed against.

 

[Steve Foster]

Free electricity!

https://www.suffolkgazette.com/business/labour-electricity-norfo/