The Denver killer is clearly a very very sick young Man.

[beorhthelm]

I love all of your confident assertions they are great.

Source or GTFO.

so you can ignore them like the other sources already provided?

 

[dingodan]

so you can ignore them like the other sources already provided?

Actually I went through all "the other sources already provided" the other day:
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Murders with firearms (most recent) by country

This is quite deceiving because it is not per capita. The U.S. is 4th highest, but also has a 300 Million + population. This was not a fact presented to counter my argument that gun laws don't reduce gun crime. It doesn't deal with the question at all.

And:

USA 10.27 (unintentional death rate 0.23)
UK 0.46 (0.01)
Germany 1.57 (0.04)

[NB: People in Switzerland are required by law to own and know how to use a firearm- 0.58 for homicide with a firearm]

These figures were apparently taken from List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well homicides is actually 4.4 not 10.27 (5.71 being suicide and the rest accidents), the U.S. being 17th highest in respect of homicide deaths with a firearm.

And regardless, this does not prove or disprove that gun laws reduce, or do not reduce gun crime. So again these are not a facts that were presented to counter what I had said.

I had said, "gun laws do not reduce gun crime". These posts have little to do with dealing with that question.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[Seagull58]

I love all of your confident assertions they are great.

Source or GTFO.

There is a link posted earlier in the thread showing murder rate by country, which corelates to the number of guns in circulation in the country. I live in South Africa, highest number of murders in the world. The majority of the murders are committed with guns because there's a huge numbers of guns in circulation and it's the easiest way to kill someone. Hence, the highest incidence of gun deaths in the world. The murders committed with knives, machetes and pangas are committed by people who don't have guns.

 

[Seagull58]

I love all of your confident assertions they are great.

Source or GTFO.

and they are correct. GTFO.

 

[dingodan]

There is a link posted earlier in the thread showing murder rate by country, which corelates to the number of guns in circulation in the country. I live in South Africa, highest number of murders in the world. The majority of the murders are committed with guns because there's a huge numbers of guns in circulation and it's the easiest way to kill someone. Hence, the highest incidence of gun deaths in the world. The murders committed with knives, machetes and pangas are committed by people who don't have guns.

Correlation is not causation. This is not as simple as you think. Gun laws do not reduce gun crime. People lawfully owning a firearm does not increase gun crime. These are facts.

Here are a couple of relevant sources:

More Guns, Less Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gun Control's Twisted Outcome - Reason.com

 

[dingodan]

Watch this video. This is what happened during Hurricane Katrina, and this is what American's who defend their second amendment rights are wary of.

The idea of armed troops/forces of any kind being sent door to door, into peoples homes, with weapons drawn, is not something they are comfortable with. Probably because that is what war/tyranny looks like.

National Guard: "Walking up and down these streets, you don't want to think about what you might have to do if somebody pops round the corner."
Press: "You mean shoot an American?"
National Guard: "Yeah."

 

[brunswick]

also, it seems some of the denver "MSM witnesses" are very questionable.......where have we seen dodgy witnesses before?

Suspect 'Eyewitnesses' - From 9/11 to the Colorado Massacre -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net

 

[Seagull58]

Correlation is not causation. This is not as simple as you think. Gun laws do not reduce gun crime. People lawfully owning a firearm does not increase gun crime. These are facts.

Here are a couple of relevant sources:

More Guns, Less Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gun Control's Twisted Outcome - Reason.com

You keep on spouting this mantra;gun laws do not reduce gun crime. An arguable assertion. The number of guns in circulation correlates to the amount of gun crime. An unarguable assertion.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Watch this video. This is what happened during Hurricane Katrina, and this is what American's who defend their second amendment rights are wary of.

The idea of armed troops/forces of any kind being sent door to door, into peoples homes, with weapons drawn, is not something they are comfortable with. Probably because that is what war/tyranny looks like.

National Guard: "Walking up and down these streets, you don't want to think about what you might have to do if somebody pops round the corner."
Press: "You mean shoot an American?"
National Guard: "Yeah."

Is this not what happens BECAUSE everyone is armed? As with the LA Riots, because of the firearms situation, the National Guard and Army had to be sent in to sort that out. Obviously looting was a problem, but so were people with shot guns and assault rifles taking shots at anything who even walked remotely close to their property.

How do you expect the search and rescue, the police etc. to operate when nervous scarred home owners are barricaded in waiting to nail anyone that walks through their door, or even past their front garden. Shocking situation, I sympathise with the NG as much as I do with home owners.

I find it laughable that Americans, armed to the teeth in their own homes are not comfortable with National Guard having to go door to door. What do they expect them to do, walk round with a pleasant smile and a hand shake while V. G Lante loading up the AK47!? That isn't what war or tyranny look like, it's what a society with 88.8 guns per 100 people looks like, and not just 88.8 guns, it's automatic, semi-automatic, assault rifles, machine guns. How anyone can imagine you need an assault rifle to defend your home I'll never know.

The classic quote from the guy with the sun glasses "they were a bit nervous because our weapons were bigger than their weapons." Poetically summed up in a way.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Correlation is not causation. This is not as simple as you think. Gun laws do not reduce gun crime. People lawfully owning a firearm does not increase gun crime. These are facts.

Here are a couple of relevant sources:

More Guns, Less Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gun Control's Twisted Outcome - Reason.com

Is this the 10th time you've posted the link to the NRA's very own head girl? As for your statement 'Gun Laws do not Reduce Gun Crime' - lets be clear that is just opinion, one you agree with, but it is just an opinion none the less, you can present it as a factual statement all you want, but it remains an opinion. I note your source for that one has as many academics refuting the work as he does supporting it.

 

[dingodan]

Is this not what happens BECAUSE everyone is armed? As with the LA Riots, because of the firearms situation, the National Guard and Army had to be sent in to sort that out. Obviously looting was a problem, but so were people with shot guns and assault rifles taking shots at anything who even walked remotely close to their property.

How do you expect the search and rescue, the police etc. to operate when nervous scarred home owners are barricaded in waiting to nail anyone that walks through their door, or even past their front garden. Shocking situation, I sympathise with the NG as much as I do with home owners.

I find it laughable that Americans, armed to the teeth in their own homes are not comfortable with National Guard having to go door to door. What do they expect them to do, walk round with a pleasant smile and a hand shake while V. G Lante loading up the AK47!? That isn't what war or tyranny look like, it's what a society with 88.8 guns per 100 people looks like, and not just 88.8 guns, it's automatic, semi-automatic, assault rifles, machine guns. How anyone can imagine you need an assault rifle to defend your home I'll never know.

The classic quote from the guy with the sun glasses "they were a bit nervous because our weapons were bigger than their weapons." Poetically summed up in a way.

I think the point that most American's would make is that, even in an emergency, the government does not have a right to try to force people from their homes, or confiscate their property. The government believes it has that right, that is the problem. Most of these people would probably like to take care of themselves and their families in their homes, why shouldn't they.

Watch this from 2:15:

 

[beorhthelm]

Watch this video. This is what happened during Hurricane Katrina, and this is what American's who defend their second amendment rights are wary of.

The idea of armed troops/forces of any kind being sent door to door, into peoples homes, with weapons drawn, is not something they are comfortable with. Probably because that is what war/tyranny looks like.

and again why are you arguing in favour and supporting the second amendment when it doesnt affect you? are you arguing about gunlaw/crime or support for a foreign nations consitutional relationship with guns? do you even understand that they are different? you keep on posting that link from Reason.com, like it holds empirical and absolute truth, rather than simply an opinion. ironically it demonstrates the disconnect between correlation and causation - crime is not higher in this country because of gun control. they create an aunt sally argument and cherry pick data. the fact is gun crime is 100 time lower in the UK than in US.

 

[dingodan]

Is this the 10th time you've posted the link to the NRA's very own head girl? As for your statement 'Gun Laws do not Reduce Gun Crime' - lets be clear that is just opinion, one you agree with, but it is just an opinion none the less, you can present it as a factual statement all you want, but it remains an opinion. I note your source for that one has as many academics refuting the work as he does supporting it.

First - The academics are refuting the books contention that more guns mean less crime.

These studies contend that there seems to be little or no effect on crime from the passage of license-to-carry laws.

They are not contending, as you are, that more guns means more crime, or that gun laws reduce crime.

Second - Yes it is my opinion. It is also fact, demonstrated by evidence. This makes it a valid opinion. If you want me to treat your opinion as valid, please provide some evidence to support it.

 

[pastafarian]

the actual disarming of everyone is open ended

thats a very handy standpoint to have
its almost as if you are saying i havnt got a clue and in order for my conspiracy theory to work i must be as ambiguous as possible and not weigh people down with facts or evidence

 

[Bold Seagull]

First - The academics are refuting the books contention that more guns mean less crime.



They are not contending, as you are, that more guns means more crime, or that gun laws reduce crime.

Second - Yes it is my opinion. It is also fact, demonstrated by evidence. This makes it a valid opinion. If you want me to treat your opinion as valid, please provide some evidence to support it.

You've responded to someone else's quote there I think, the second one is not from me.

Anyway, my only opinion was to only question your claim of something as fact. I don't need to provide any evidence for this as it's obvious. If you really believe that it is objectively a fact, then it can't be a valid opinion because it is a fact. A fact by it's very nature cannot be refuted, and therefore opinion is irrelevant, because it is a fact. Unless it's not a fact and it's just an opinion. Which is my opinion, and this is my evidence to support it.

 

[BadFish]

Underlying the gun laws don't effect gun crime is the fact that you would be a bit thick to carry out gun crime with a gun that you legally own as it would immediately be traced back to you. The link many are talking about I assume to be illegal, black market gun which would be the ones used in crime.

 

[Hillian1]

Something very odd is happening.

 

[BadFish]

Something very odd is happening.

Shit!! this is clear evidence that Kermit is the head of the Illuminati!

 

[brunswick]

thats a very handy standpoint to have
its almost as if you are saying i havnt got a clue and in order for my conspiracy theory to work i must be as ambiguous as possible and not weigh people down with facts or evidence

no human on the planet can clearly predict "how long it would take to completely disarm a nation" - this in no way crashes my theory because, as i said, it is about the law going into consciousness and not the really nuts and bolts of door to door disarming.

 

[BadFish]

no human on the planet can clearly predict "how long it would take to completely disarm a nation" - this in no way crashes my theory because, as i said, it is about the law going into consciousness and not the really nuts and bolts of door to door disarming.

But you gave it a go by predicting Christmas day this year....good on you.