[Politics] The 2024 US Election - *MATCH DAY*

[Zeberdi]

This tells me you don’t know what socialism means without you telling me you don’t know what socialism means.

Actually, I think you’ll find that the Democrats in the US are striking out for the centre ground. I think you’ve already been asked this question, but can you tell me how the US Democrats are halting private ownership of business and enforcing state ownership on US business owners? Thought not. Because they aren’t.

Regulated capitalism does not equal socialism.

Perhaps I could refer you to my earlier post re. American definitions of ‘socialism’ and the table of definitions I posted - there really is a cross Atlantic divide I think in how we are defining these terms - the term can have very different meanings to different people, so much so, I am not even sure they are helpful any more. The terms ‘left’ and ‘right’ in American politics is also contextual. In fact, the right of political spectrum proponents will often just use the term ‘socialism’ as a derogatory term for anything left of their centre. We have never had a socialist society in the UK (as defined by Clause 4) of course, only political parties who are closer in policies to the ideology than others - so in practice, it is all a spectrum, the characterisation of which, very much influenced by where we ourselves stand on that spectrum.

The Republicans have some very fundamental Christian conservatives on the ‘right’ of the party conversely, the Dems have politicians on the left of the Party, who platform on what might be regarded as more ‘socialist’ on the spectrum eg. Bernie Saunders and AOC who both have a small but hardcore following in the Democratic party.

I would like to ask @lasvegan to define what he means by ‘socialism’ and accept that it might be a different definition to one you or I might have?

 

[lasvegan]

I am

I am truly pleased for you. How and why?

 

[lasvegan]

Perhaps I could refer you to my earlier post re. American definitions of ‘socialism’ and the table of definitions I posted - there really is a cross Atlantic divide I think in how we are defining these terms - the term can have very different meanings to different people, so much so, I am not even sure they are helpful any more. The terms ‘left’ and ‘right’ in American politics is also contextual. In fact, the right of political spectrum proponents will often just use the term ‘socialism’ as a derogatory term for anything left of their centre. We have never had a socialist society in the UK (as defined by Clause 4) of course, only political parties who are closer in policies to the ideology than others - so in practice, it is all a spectrum, the characterisation of which, very much influenced by where we ourselves stand on that spectrum.

The Republicans have some very fundamental Christian conservatives on the ‘right’ of the party conversely, the Dems have politicians on the left of the Party, who platform on what might be regarded as more ‘socialist’ on the spectrum eg. Bernie Saunders and AOC who both have a small but hardcore following in the Democratic party.

I would like to ask @lasvegan to define what he means by ‘socialism’ and accept that it might be a different definition to one you or I might have?

I will concede that calling @chickens a socialist as a little unfair. The point I was trying to make is that the Democrat Party is leaning towards totalitarianism, one party rule. Everyone can agree that they are are doing their best to imprison their main political opponent but they are now setting up a task force to ruin the third party candidate.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/01/politics/rfk-jr-cnntv-interview/index.html

 

[lasvegan]

This thread is not just about what happens in another Country’s election but what the world could look like for all of us if Trump returns to power.

What was worse in the world when Trump was in power?

 

[The Fifth Column]

What was worse in the world when Trump was in power?

Americas relationship with every other country in the western world, the environment. 2 little things to start us off.

 

[BadFish]

What was worse in the world when Trump was in power?

America's reputation.

 

[BadFish]

I will concede that calling @chickens a socialist as a little unfair. The point I was trying to make is that the Democrat Party is leaning towards totalitarianism, one party rule. Everyone can agree that they are are doing their best to imprison their main political opponent but they are now setting up a task force to ruin the third party candidate.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/01/politics/rfk-jr-cnntv-interview/index.html

From reading that article it seems there is more to the story that meets the eye.

“With a straight face Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said that Joe Biden is a bigger threat to democracy than Donald Trump because he was barred from pushing conspiracy theories online,”

 

[Stat Brother]

I suggest you just put CD on ignore because he is clearly bothering you as is anybody who replies to him

Or just ignore the whole thread

I'm fine thanks.

 

[Stat Brother]

Americas relationship with every other country in the western world.

This is where having an insular society rather plays into Trump's hands.

 

[Curious Orange]

Everyone can agree that they are are doing their best to imprison their main political opponent

Everyone? As best I can tell that is a narrative almost entirely driven by Mr Trump himself.

Please let us not forget that most of these trials, including the Florida documents case, came about because Grand Juries in those jurisdictions made recommendations that the defendant be charged. These Grand Juries are ordinary people, not the Democratic Party.

As to Mr Trump facing so many charges I suppose it rather depends on whether you think politicians should be held to account equally under the law for any crimes they are alleged to have committed, like you or I would, or not. If you think having held high office, or being in the process of running for it, gives you some special status or immunity from prosecution then you are advocating for a two tier system where the obvious tactic for any criminal to avoid accountability then becomes 'run for office'.

Personally, I 'd rather people were held to account equally and trial determines their guilt or innocence in a timely manner.

 

[Triggaaar]

I can promise you that the USA, democrats, are flirting with socialism.

What do you think socialism means?

 

[Zeberdi]

I'm fine thanks.

Dear lord, the poster in question is only invested in one thing - getting under the skin of other posters.

Right

 

[Triggaaar]

The point I was trying to make is that the Democrat Party is leaning towards totalitarianism, one party rule.

That's incredible nonsense.

Everyone can agree that they are are doing their best to imprison their main political opponent

Their main political opponent is a criminal and the justice system is prosecuting him

 

[Stat Brother]

Right

I'm just trying to help you as you keep feeding that poster and yet seemingly don't understand why.

 

[Zeberdi]

What was worse in the world when Trump was in power?

Environmental protection

• Trump’s withdrawal from the Paris Agreement - Without the United States, the rest of the world had a harder time meeting the Paris Agreement’s goal of preventing global temperatures from rising more than 2 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels. And the United States missed out on the creation of more jobs and economic growth as well as reduced business risks. While Covid and the renewables market blunted the impact in terms of emissions, Trump’s aggressive rolling back of environmental protection policies could still have lasting impact.

Relations with Iran -

• President Trump withdrew the United States from the deal in 2018, claiming it failed to curtail Iran’s missile program and regional influence. Iran began ignoring limitations on its nuclear program a year later. This has left the US isolated with no viable option for monitoring Iran’s programme of enrichment - Iran is closer to developing nuclear weapons now than it ever was and the reintroduction of harsh sanctions that were lifted when the JPCOA was agreed has inflammed tensions even further.

Any viable Peace Plan between Israel and Palestine

• The proposal missed a signature feature of every prior peace plan: a path to a viable Palestinian state. It proposed dividing up the Palestinian territories and surrounding them by Israel, giving Israel total control over Palestinian security, handed a third of the West Bank over to Israel and moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem (an attempt to make that hotly contested city the de facto capital of Israel) - Trump‘s ‘Peace Plan’ destroyed any remaining hope that Israel will settle for the deal that peace processors have envisioned for a quarter century. Trump also colluded with Netanyahu, a far right wing Political leader, such that they both supported each other’s leadership, right wing policy positions/agendas, despite both being on corruption charges and likely facing criminal sanctions should they be voted out of power.

Worsened Security in Europe

• Trump’s actions weakened Ukraine, divided NATO, emboldened Putin and helped get us to where we are today. And even with Trump no longer in office, his impact lives on in the form of Putin-friendly commentary in right wing media and from some Republican lawmakers. Within weeks, of Russia annexing Crimea (2014) Trump praised Putin and predicted that “the rest of Ukraine will fall … fairly quickly.” Echoing Kremlin propaganda, Trump said in a tv interview that the Crimean people “would rather be with Russia,” a position he pushed in private. One of his 2016 campaign aides falsely claimed that “Russia did not seize Crimea.”. Trump extorted Ukraine in 2019 to bolster his 2020 election campaign in an attempt to coerce Ukraine to provide ’dirt’ on Joe and Hunter Biden and evidence came to light of widespread corruption.

U.S. Exits Paris Climate Accord after Trump Stalls Global Warming Action for Four Years

State-level efforts and a growing renewables market have mitigated federal emissions policy rollbacks—but Trump’s climate impact could be long-lasting

www.scientificamerican.com

What Is the Iran Nuclear Deal?

The United States’ withdrawal from the arms control agreement has heightened tensions and left the remaining signatories scrambling to keep the deal alive.

www.cfr.org

Trump’s rejection of Paris Agreement is a call to action and resolve for us all

"U.S. President Donald Trump’s withdrawal from the Paris Agreement on climate change puts the United States at odds not just with the international community, but with overwhelming scientific evidence and the publicly expressed wishes of hundreds of American companies, from Apple to Exxon. U.S...

www.iisd.org

Trump’s Israel-Palestine “peace plan” is a con

The proposal destroys the prospects for any real deal and brings Israel meaningfully closer to “apartheid.”

www.vox.com

Here are the reasons for Trump's economic war with China

On Friday the US president ‘hereby ordered’ companies to halt business with China, among other attacks – how did we get here?

www.theguardian.com

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/trumps-extortion-ukraine-complete-government-shakedown/

 

[Hugo Rune]

Environmental protection

• Trump’s withdrawal from the Paris Agreement - Without the United States, the rest of the world had a harder time meeting the Paris Agreement’s goal of preventing global temperatures from rising more than 2 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels. And the United States missed out on the creation of more jobs and economic growth as well as reduced business risks. While Covid and the renewables market blunted the impact in terms of emissions, Trump’s aggressive rolling back of environmental protection policies could still have lasting impact.

Relations with Iran -

• President Trump withdrew the United States from the deal in 2018, claiming it failed to curtail Iran’s missile program and regional influence. Iran began ignoring limitations on its nuclear program a year later. This has left the US isolated with no viable option for monitoring Iran’s programme of enrichment - Iran is closer to developing nuclear weapons now than it ever was and the reintroduction of harsh sanctions that were lifted when the JPCOA was agreed has inflammed tensions even further.

Any viable Peace Plan between Israel and Palestine

• The proposal missed a signature feature of every prior peace plan: a path to a viable Palestinian state. It proposed dividing up the Palestinian territories and surrounding them by Israel, giving Israel total control over Palestinian security, handed a third of the West Bank over to Israel and moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem (an attempt to make that hotly contested city the de facto capital of Israel) - Trump‘s ‘Peace Plan’ destroyed any remaining hope that Israel will settle for the deal that peace processors have envisioned for a quarter century. Trump also colluded with Netanyahu, a far right wing Political leader, such that they both supported each other’s leadership, right wing policy positions/agendas, despite both being on corruption charges and likely facing criminal sanctions should they be voted out of power.

Worsened Security in Europe

• Trump’s actions weakened Ukraine, divided NATO, emboldened Putin and helped get us to where we are today. And even with Trump no longer in office, his impact lives on in the form of Putin-friendly commentary in right wing media and from some Republican lawmakers. Within weeks, of Russia annexing Crimea (2014) Trump praised Putin and predicted that “the rest of Ukraine will fall … fairly quickly.” Echoing Kremlin propaganda, Trump said in a tv interview that the Crimean people “would rather be with Russia,” a position he pushed in private. One of his 2016 campaign aides falsely claimed that “Russia did not seize Crimea.”. Trump extorted Ukraine in 2019 to bolster his 2020 election campaign in an attempt to coerce Ukraine to provide ’dirt’ on Joe and Hunter Biden and evidence came to light of widespread corruption.

U.S. Exits Paris Climate Accord after Trump Stalls Global Warming Action for Four Years

State-level efforts and a growing renewables market have mitigated federal emissions policy rollbacks—but Trump’s climate impact could be long-lasting

www.scientificamerican.com

What Is the Iran Nuclear Deal?

The United States’ withdrawal from the arms control agreement has heightened tensions and left the remaining signatories scrambling to keep the deal alive.

www.cfr.org

Trump’s rejection of Paris Agreement is a call to action and resolve for us all

"U.S. President Donald Trump’s withdrawal from the Paris Agreement on climate change puts the United States at odds not just with the international community, but with overwhelming scientific evidence and the publicly expressed wishes of hundreds of American companies, from Apple to Exxon. U.S...

www.iisd.org

Trump’s Israel-Palestine “peace plan” is a con

The proposal destroys the prospects for any real deal and brings Israel meaningfully closer to “apartheid.”

www.vox.com

Here are the reasons for Trump's economic war with China

On Friday the US president ‘hereby ordered’ companies to halt business with China, among other attacks – how did we get here?

www.theguardian.com

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/trumps-extortion-ukraine-complete-government-shakedown/

A restrained response (in terms of length) seeing that the question could easily warrant a book sized response!

 

[chickens]

Perhaps I could refer you to my earlier post re. American definitions of ‘socialism’ and the table of definitions I posted - there really is a cross Atlantic divide I think in how we are defining these terms - the term can have very different meanings to different people, so much so, I am not even sure they are helpful any more. The terms ‘left’ and ‘right’ in American politics is also contextual. In fact, the right of political spectrum proponents will often just use the term ‘socialism’ as a derogatory term for anything left of their centre. We have never had a socialist society in the UK (as defined by Clause 4) of course, only political parties who are closer in policies to the ideology than others - so in practice, it is all a spectrum, the characterisation of which, very much influenced by where we ourselves stand on that spectrum.

The Republicans have some very fundamental Christian conservatives on the ‘right’ of the party conversely, the Dems have politicians on the left of the Party, who platform on what might be regarded as more ‘socialist’ on the spectrum eg. Bernie Saunders and AOC who both have a small but hardcore following in the Democratic party.

I would like to ask @lasvegan to define what he means by ‘socialism’ and accept that it might be a different definition to one you or I might have?

Thanks Zeb, but while I accept that the meaning of words can evolve over time, and take on different meanings in certain settings, I don’t believe in allowing politicians who are effectively attempting to smear their opponents to completely redefine words and effectively get away with those smears.

The “when I said socialist, I meant someone with views different to my own” defence shall not stand.

You’ll note a complete absence of me describing @lasvegan as a fascist/nazi on here, and that’s because I don’t believe he’s either of those things. All I’m asking for is that we cut through the hyperbole and deal with the reality.

Biden, unpopular though he is, has genuinely overseen an effective tenure in Government. His policies may be designed to help America’s poorer families, but that does not make him or his policies socialist. Even most capitalists recognise that too much inequality stifles demand, that’s not a socialist thing.

 

[Zeberdi]

Thanks Zeb, but while I accept that the meaning of words can evolve over time, and take on different meanings in certain settings, I don’t believe in allowing politicians who are effectively attempting to smear their opponents to completely redefine words and effectively get away with those smears.

The “when I said socialist, I meant someone with views different to my own” defence shall not stand.

You’ll note a complete absence of me describing @lasvegan as a fascist/nazi on here, and that’s because I don’t believe he’s either of those things. All I’m asking for is that we cut through the hyperbole and deal with the reality.

Yes, I totally see what you are saying and I get that but my point is more of a general one.

I just wanted to highlight that Americans have redefined ‘socialism’ - there simply isn’t an homogeneous understanding of the term and it is more concrete than just ‘settings’ - maybe read the article I posted. Our ‘Clause 4’ understanding of ’socialism’ doesn’t even come into American discourse. Right wing American politicians as British ones, use ‘socialism’ as a general slur against any politician/party espousing left wing politics. The term ‘fascism’ has also been misappropriated as a derogatory term used by left wing ideologists to slur hard right politics. I’m just saying, these terms can be very undefined, redefined and unrefined in modern political debate and often have no relation to the root ideology from which they spring..

I did also note that you were called a ‘socialist’ in a deliberately derogatory manner by @lasvegan (for which he has admitted and qualified). Sorry if I didn’t recognise that insult to you in my response.

I’m merely pointing out that it is much easier to have a dialogue about political ideologies if both sides can at least have a common understanding on the fundamental terms being used - otherwise people simply end up shouting across a canyon and listening to their own echoes.

I think we are probably on the same page tbh.

 

[Zeberdi]

A restrained response (in terms of length) seeing that the question could easily warrant a book sized response!

I could write more if you like - you know I could

 

[BadFish]

The point I was trying to make is that the Democrat Party is leaning towards totalitarianism, one party rule.

This is a huge statement to make with no information to back it up.

Got to say I would need some convincing of this being true.

Everyone can agree that they are are doing their best to imprison their main political opponent.

I think that suggesting 'everyone' can agree is a massive stretch. More like a small percentage of people would agree.