[Politics] The 2024 US Election - *MATCH DAY*

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think you are over thinking tbh. Trump will be a disaster - he IS the Republican Party - that’s the difference- Biden has not moulded the Democrats to his image so the checks and balances surrounding him in office ie Chiefs of Staff, AG of the US etc - are there if he stumbles. Trump has a track record of ignoring or sacking anyone who disagrees with him - even destroying their reputation when they have tried to speak up.

There is no plausible narrative that supports Trump for a second run imo - have people forgotten what it was like last time he was in power? Too much trolling on this thread (on both sides) has given people a short memory.

I like to cut people a bit of slack and, despite the fact that nobody has presented a tiny cock-end of a piss-drop of justification for favouring Trump, I am still open to persuasion. And I say to those people, please try to persuade me. Don't call me a woke leftist, persuade me. With reason and logic.

 

[lasvegan]

I like to cut people a bit of slack and, despite the fact that nobody has presented a tiny cock-end of a piss-drop of justification for favouring Trump, I am still open to persuasion. And I say to those people, please try to persuade me. Don't call me a woke leftist, persuade me. With reason and logic.

Without going back and reading all the comments that my copious amounts of drinking may have evoked, let’s take one issue at a time. How do you think he is doing on the immigration issue? I’m an immigrant (obviously), but it took a lot time and money to do legally. 8 million illegals have crossed the border in 3 years. We don’t know who they are or why they are here. It is costing millions of dollars that communities do not have to accommodate them. Child trafficking, sex trafficking, drug smuggling is through the roof. Mexican cartels are raking in millions of dollars. The Biden administration is doing nothing to counter this problem, they are encouraging it.

Trump is all for legal immigration, but not the disaster that is currently deemed acceptable.

Joe Biden now doing what he does best — weaseling out of the blame for US border crisis

Biden claims he needs Republicans in Congress to give him the “authority to shut down the border when it becomes overwhelmed . . . I would use it the day I sign the bill into law.”

nypost.com

 

[bhafc99]

Well, indeed. That's how I feel. I was just making the point that it is possible to make a case for Trump, but to do so honestly requires acknowledging all the points to which you allude, and taking the position that they don't matter in the great scheme of things.

In some respects this is a plausible narrative - provided you are clear that the president is merely the chief administrator, and not someone to look up to, revere even, as the voice of the people to the people and the world. And the trouble with that is if one takes that line about Trump then it is equally reasonable, indeed inescapable, that the same line should in fairness be taken with Biden; his gaffes overlooked, and even his apparent senility disregarded (until the white house doctors write him a sick note), given that he would merely be the almost anonymous chairman of the board, with much of his work done by others (as it doubtless is, anyway).

The narrative needs to be even more nimble than I can muster though because it requires that 'leadership' qualities of dignity, honour and purpose (beyond the gift of command given by the office itself) - think Churchill, De Gaulle, JFK, Thatcher, Blair - be irrelevant; it would be nice to see someone make a serious effort to explain this; "a president does not need to have leadership qualities". Bring it on.

Instead, being a pissy, argumentative fact-twisting twit, arguing black is white, has little more than mild entertainment value, perhaps also inviting one to muse on the age old question: is the perverse narrative the product of stupidity or dishonesty?

But… Hunter Biden's laptop!

 

[bhafc99]

The difference between Trump and Biden is night and day. Economic performance, healthcare, foreign policy, support for the constitution, women's rights, security of State secrets etc. etc. etc. Even wrt security of the border where Trump has instructed his cult followers to tank the congressional deal.

But… Hunter Biden's laptop!

 

[lasvegan]

Well played

So you can’t?

 

[bhafc99]

The main difference is that one, at the end of his second term, will leave office and that the other has shown that he will do everything he can not to. Let's be blunt, the motivation for Trump's run for the presidency is to keep himself out of jail. If the Democrats were really as powerful and Machiavellian as some would have you believe, they would have offered to sort all his legal problems in return for him pulling out. They haven't because they don't actually have this power and actually believe in the rule of law.

If he wins, then this just delays his legal troubles and he will be at risk again after his term and will not care what he has to break to protect himself. Most people who vote are not actually very interested in politics and you could forgive them for not being aware enough to be scared of this eventuality, but the last election proved the doomsayers correct, whatever the law says, Trump will not go willingly or easily. For people who do follow and understand politics and democratic safeguards, it's unbelievable that a Democracy can be so politically divided that someone who has done what he has done is allowed anywhere near the nomination, let alone be ahead in the polls.

But… Hunter Biden's laptop!

 

[lasvegan]

But… Hunter Biden's laptop!

Not real then?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Without going back and reading all the comments that my copious amounts of drinking may have evoked, let’s take one issue at a time. How do you think he is doing on the immigration issue? I’m an immigrant (obviously), but it took a lot time and money to do legally. 8 million illegals have crossed the border in 3 years. We don’t know who they are or why they are here. It is costing millions of dollars that communities do not have to accommodate them. Child trafficking, sex trafficking, drug smuggling is through the roof. Mexican cartels are raking in millions of dollars. The Biden administration is doing nothing to counter this problem, they are encouraging it.

Trump is all for legal immigration, but not the disaster that is currently deemed acceptable.

Joe Biden now doing what he does best — weaseling out of the blame for US border crisis

Biden claims he needs Republicans in Congress to give him the “authority to shut down the border when it becomes overwhelmed . . . I would use it the day I sign the bill into law.”

nypost.com

I clicked your link and with the greatest respect if I want to know how many immigrants have or have not entered America I am not going to seek out an article that begins:

"For three years, Joe Biden and his repulsive Homeland Security chief, Alejandro Mayorkas, have encouraged the Third World to enter America illegally. At least 8 million have answered their siren song."

I mean, come on. That's just childish babble.

 

[BadFish]

Without going back and reading all the comments that my copious amounts of drinking may have evoked, let’s take one issue at a time. How do you think he is doing on the immigration issue? I’m an immigrant (obviously), but it took a lot time and money to do legally. 8 million illegals have crossed the border in 3 years. We don’t know who they are or why they are here. It is costing millions of dollars that communities do not have to accommodate them. Child trafficking, sex trafficking, drug smuggling is through the roof. Mexican cartels are raking in millions of dollars. The Biden administration is doing nothing to counter this problem, they are encouraging it.

Trump is all for legal immigration, but not the disaster that is currently deemed acceptable.

Joe Biden now doing what he does best — weaseling out of the blame for US border crisis

Biden claims he needs Republicans in Congress to give him the “authority to shut down the border when it becomes overwhelmed . . . I would use it the day I sign the bill into law.”

nypost.com

What is the data here? Would you share a link that shows the illegal immigration numbers over the last three/four presidents?

This will tell us the answer on how he is doing on the immigration issue.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What is the data here? Would you share a link that shows the illegal immigration numbers over the last three/four presidents?

This will tell us the answer on how he is doing on the immigration issue.

Apparently, ultra right-wing Biden has presided over an extreme level of expulsions in his zealous persecution of illegal immigrants, according to published data:

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Data also show that Trump was useless at controlling the busy south west border where 90% of illegal immigrants enter the US*. One could argue that Trump was so relaxed about illegal immigration that he actually encouraged it. On the other hand this was a problem that was quickly rectified by the Biden administration. *typo corrected

 

[Bodian]

What is the data here? Would you share a link that shows the illegal immigration numbers over the last three/four presidents?

This will tell us the answer on how he is doing on the immigration issue.

Some data to 2021 https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...out-unauthorized-immigrants-living-in-the-us/

and 2022 https://www.statista.com/topics/3454/illegal-immigration-in-the-united-states/#topicOverview

Fairly recent https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/turning-point-us-unauthorized-immigrant-population

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

He has supported Ukraine and NATO, neither of which the Diaper Don would have done.

Trumps argument will be Biden is so weak that if he was in power Ukraine wouldn't have happened at all.

Trump can point at his time in office and the relative peace to back up his claims, knowing full well you can't really compare times.

The Two things he will aim to win voters are on the southern border and the wars US troops are involved in.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Given the above data, I am going to call out the link posted by @lasvegan as a mischief piece written by the journalistic wing of the lunatic element that consider that outrageous lies are legitimate weapons in the MAGA war to get Trump re-elected. I could of course be wrong because, unlike the immigration data I posted above, this is just my opinion.

In the meantime, I look forward to the honesty I called for yesterday. Honesty from people who can say they support Trump just because he makes them feel better than Biden does, no special reason, and no particular concerns about Trump's patterns of behaviour. That is a legitimate stance, even if it leaves me askance.

Backing up a stance by posting links to ranty abuse and egregious and easily-disproven lies on what is probably a fake news sites, probably funded by Putin is, however, not the best way explain one's position, let alone win hearts and minds.

 

[BadFish]

Apparently, ultra right-wing Biden has presided over an extreme level of expulsions in his zealous persecution of illegal immigrants, according to published data:

View attachment 174308

That graph suggests that Trump didn't do much removal or returning, or am I reading it wrong?

Surely the performance of governments on stopping illegal immigration is just about counting. To prove that Trump was better than Biden should be pretty easy using verified numbers, I am surprised that this data wasn't posted in the initial claim in place of that shocking article from the NY post.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That graph suggests that Trump didn't do much removal or returning, or am I reading it wrong?

Surely the performance of governments on stopping illegal immigration is just about counting. To prove that Trump was better than Biden should be pretty easy using verified numbers, I am surprised that this data wasn't posted in the initial claim in place of that shocking article from the NY post.

Trump did nothing of any value. Instead he weaponized it and created a monumental deflection, marinated in vindictiveness, designed to do nothing more than give his MAGA fans a massive boner.

He appeared on television claiming he would build a wall. A black wall. And that Mexico would pay for it. Yeah.....that was never going to happen, was it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump..., commonly referred,up to the year's election.

"As of December 2020, the total funding given for new fencing was about $15 billion (~$16.8 billion in 2022), a third of which had been given by Congress while Trump had ordered the rest taken from the military budget. This funding was intended to build new fencing over 738 miles (1,188 km), at a cost of about $20 million per mile; this would cover a little more than half the approximately 1,300 mi (2,100 km) that had no fencing when Trump took office.[53][54]

A March 2021 review of the Trump work on the wall found only 47 miles (76 km) of new barriers where none had previously existed. While Trump had described the new wall as "virtually impenetrable", it was found that smugglers had repeatedly sawed through the wall with cheap power tools. Also, new dirt roads that had been used to access the wall construction served as new access roads for smugglers.[55]"

The total lack of effect of this on illegal immigration numbers is captured on a figure I posted above.

Inspired by this expensive, headline-grabbing load of old bollocks, the lunatic fringe of the tory party decided that they would deal with their own 'illegal immigration' issue not by, er, dealing with it, but by gobbing off, and inventing a complete load of old bollocks policy of sending illegal immigrants to Rwanda.

Biden may be a duffer, but he is at least a grown up. Hopefully we will soon have some grown ups in charge in the UK.

 

[BadFish]

Some data to 2021 https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...out-unauthorized-immigrants-living-in-the-us/

and 2022 https://www.statista.com/topics/3454/illegal-immigration-in-the-united-states/#topicOverview

Fairly recent https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/turning-point-us-unauthorized-immigrant-population

I saw those and the illegal immigration looks reasonably consistent in comparison to Obama, I guess that Las Vegan has access to some post-2021 data that shows a spike in illegal immigration during Bidens Presidency.

 

[Bodian]

I saw those and the illegal immigration looks reasonably consistent in comparison to Obama, I guess that Las Vegan has access to some post-2021 data that shows a spike in illegal immigration during Bidens Presidency.

Yes, you'd hope that @lasvegan has such data and can provide it to us. Otherwise it's just unsubstantiated nonsense isn't it!

 

[Igzilla]

Apparently, ultra right-wing Biden has presided over an extreme level of expulsions in his zealous persecution of illegal immigrants, according to published data:

View attachment 174308

Data also show that Trump was useless at controlling the busy south west border where 90% of illegal immigrants enter the UK. One could argue that Trump was so relaxed about illegal immigration that he actually encouraged it. On the other hand this was a problem that was quickly rectified by the Biden administration.

View attachment 174309

You can prove anything with facts.

 

[Zeberdi]

Perhaps one of our resident Trump supporters could explain why Trump and his supporters are trying to block the Congressional Border Bill (which has cross party support), including blocking an urgent $61b funding package for Ukraine which is part of the Bill:

Romney: ‘Appalling’ Trump wants to kill border bill so he can ‘blame Biden’

Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) on Thursday took aim at former President Trump for pushing Republican lawmakers to oppose a border deal so that he could use the issue to campaign against President Biden …

thehill.com

It looks like pure vainglorious electioneering from Trump and like every other issue, all he cares about is getting back into power, even if it means blocking a bill that will legislate for tougher border controls (which inter alia gives presidential powers to immediately close the border once crossings reach 5,000) in order that he can, as part of his election campaign, continue to attack Biden on ’doing nothing about the border issue’.

He is back to peddling falsehoods and racist comments about ‘millions and millions’ of Mexicans crossing the border and scaremongering the electorate into believing America is being ‘invaded’ - a term widely acknowledged as a deliberate term used to pave the way to justify an armed response to stop migrants from crossing.

Trump ties himself in knots on US-Mexico border in brazen political move

Mr Trump never completely stopped crossings along the US-Mexico border despite his harsh anti-immigrant policies

www.independent.co.uk