No it's not. China is turning out more talent on average per capita than we are. To date the economy has been built on a blue collar workforce, but they have their sights firmly set on the more premium work/industries that we think we can hold onto. If we're not careful, we'll all be on £8k a year turning out plastic widgets for export to wealthy Chinese families.
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Teachers Strike
- Thread starter Geestar
- Start date
No it's not. China is turning out more talent on average per capita than we are. To date the economy has been built on a blue collar workforce, but they have their sights firmly set on the more premium work/industries that we think we can hold onto. If we're not careful, we'll all be on £8k a year turning out plastic widgets for export to wealthy Chinese families.
shaolinpunk
[Insert witty title here]
My girlfriend is a primary school teacher. She gets there for 7.50am, gets home about 6.30pm and generally works at least 12 hours a week in evenings/weekends to mark work and prepare lessons. That's without factoring in the constant stress involved with whatever the latest hoop they have to jump through is.
She has been teaching for three years and is talking more and more these days about potentially leaving it behind and starting a different career with fewer hours and less stress.
She has been teaching for three years and is talking more and more these days about potentially leaving it behind and starting a different career with fewer hours and less stress.
Kaiser_Soze
Who is Kaiser Soze??
- Apr 14, 2008
- 1,355
Some utterly ridiculous myths being peddled here. Same old every time the teachers strike comes up.
Inset days are NOT a day off. The kids have a day off, the teachers are in school to TRAIN.
Short days? Rubbish. They may be in school from 8 till 4 but they then come home and work. Marking, schemes of work etc. For those that can't count, 8-4 is the SAME as 9-5 that us office monkeys works.
Same goes for the summer holidays. At least two of those weeks are usually spent in school sorting out classrooms etc and then arranging resources.
Retiring at 67 is an inevitability for most people but we need to recognise the reality. If you are sitting in an office or a supermarket checkout it's not gonna be a huge problem. Trying to control a class of 30 or so 15 or 16 yr olds with increasingly bad behaviour and attitude is not going to work.
Above all Micheal Gove is a CJTC. The education system is a favourite of every political party and gets changed so regularly. When he came in he was banging on about scrapping GCSE's and replacing them with the EBac. 18 months later that decision is reversed despite schools already making changes to ready themselves for a different examination system. Then we have the endless comparisons with South Fu**ing Korea. This is a nation who's school kids who start at 7 in the morning, go to school till 4 and then go to two after-school classes for English and Maths and THEN have to home and do homework, often staying up till 2AM.
Is that really what people want for their children??
Inset days are NOT a day off. The kids have a day off, the teachers are in school to TRAIN.
Short days? Rubbish. They may be in school from 8 till 4 but they then come home and work. Marking, schemes of work etc. For those that can't count, 8-4 is the SAME as 9-5 that us office monkeys works.
Same goes for the summer holidays. At least two of those weeks are usually spent in school sorting out classrooms etc and then arranging resources.
Retiring at 67 is an inevitability for most people but we need to recognise the reality. If you are sitting in an office or a supermarket checkout it's not gonna be a huge problem. Trying to control a class of 30 or so 15 or 16 yr olds with increasingly bad behaviour and attitude is not going to work.
Above all Micheal Gove is a CJTC. The education system is a favourite of every political party and gets changed so regularly. When he came in he was banging on about scrapping GCSE's and replacing them with the EBac. 18 months later that decision is reversed despite schools already making changes to ready themselves for a different examination system. Then we have the endless comparisons with South Fu**ing Korea. This is a nation who's school kids who start at 7 in the morning, go to school till 4 and then go to two after-school classes for English and Maths and THEN have to home and do homework, often staying up till 2AM.
Is that really what people want for their children??
It's always interesting to read the thoughts and feelings of some of the members on here (most of whom normally amuse me on a daily basis) that resort to stereotypical mudslinging when it comes to certain professions and actions taken by those within them. For some reason teachers split the pack incredibly.
I am striking today, not due to pay (heaven forbid we should get paid to do this wonderful (genuinely, heartfelt) job but due to the continuing assault on both our working lives, conditions for doing our job and the end result of hopefully a successful, fulfilling career teaching our children all about their world and what it is to be a member of an open, exciting society such as ours.
It is easy to pick on teachers because of our exorbitant '12 week holidays' but the reality for most is that it's both utterly needed after a term of high speed, high pressure teaching and entirely required to replenish our energies for the next term or cohort of children. We are as exhausted as our pupils - but happy, mostly, for our part in shaping their futures.
Starting salaries for newly qualified teachers are not unreasonable but certainly not at the height of those claimed - £21,804 for anywhere outside of London. If you factor in the high cost of living in the capital then the starting salary of £27,000 is about right too. Annual increments and 'guaranteed' pay rises are a thing of the past, we now have to meet certain targets in annual appraisals to 'earn' the right to progress. Again your instant reaction maybe that you work in an industry where targets are set and you have to meet them - but anyone that relies on the progress another human makes (up to 65 in our case, if you include a form class and maths set as I have, being a primary teacher) should realise how difficult that can be. They are people after all, not a machine or a robot. All children progress at different speeds and in different subjects or skills outside of maths, english or science - we are being forced to ignore the musician, the artist, the sportsman and the negotiator...
However, we do all still keep working as hard as we can, mostly for 60+ hours a week (you'll know what that feels like if you really do it in your job), often more to try to ensure this happens. We are contracted to work 32.5 hours a week. On our salaries, that would be very good money. The reality is that no one enters the profession to become materialisically wealthy and this strike is not about pay.
Finally, our 'very generous pensions' don't come for free. I pay in excess of £350 per month in to my pension. After nine years of teaching, my current pension valuation, annually is £3,975 - do you still think this is a very generous pension? I appreciate that should I remain in the profession for 40 years it will be a very welcome reward for a lifetime service, but I am certainly not going to be rich. The pension contribution was increased 18 months ago following a previous increase and change in pensions in 2007 to ensure the teachering pension was affordable. The government need only show teachers how the current pension set up isn't affordable and a huge element of what we are complaining about not being listened to about would be removed. We know that it is affordable and that's why this data is being withheld.
I want my children (I have four) to be taught by inspired, enthusiastic, creative energetic teachers. We are there already, but there is a huge danger of not having them in the future. 68 is way too late and I suspect, as other posters have mentioned, that many will 'retire' and then have to wait for their pensions to kick in. I hope there are plenty that are financially able to do so.
Please try to understand the role and job of a teacher before making sweeping statements. Some have posted that they know teachers, know what they earn and that they simply don't understand the strike. I am very confused by this and would love to know where they teach because I work in an amazing school with phenomenally talented people and almost to a person they all support the strike (even if they are not a member of the NUT).
I really trust it works out well for all concerned - that's all of you that are either still in education or that have or one day will have children / grand children of your own that you want to send to positive thriving schools full of qualified, talented teachers. At the moment, that isn't very likely unless drastic action (like losing £100 that my family can scarcely afford) takes place.
I am striking today, not due to pay (heaven forbid we should get paid to do this wonderful (genuinely, heartfelt) job but due to the continuing assault on both our working lives, conditions for doing our job and the end result of hopefully a successful, fulfilling career teaching our children all about their world and what it is to be a member of an open, exciting society such as ours.
It is easy to pick on teachers because of our exorbitant '12 week holidays' but the reality for most is that it's both utterly needed after a term of high speed, high pressure teaching and entirely required to replenish our energies for the next term or cohort of children. We are as exhausted as our pupils - but happy, mostly, for our part in shaping their futures.
Starting salaries for newly qualified teachers are not unreasonable but certainly not at the height of those claimed - £21,804 for anywhere outside of London. If you factor in the high cost of living in the capital then the starting salary of £27,000 is about right too. Annual increments and 'guaranteed' pay rises are a thing of the past, we now have to meet certain targets in annual appraisals to 'earn' the right to progress. Again your instant reaction maybe that you work in an industry where targets are set and you have to meet them - but anyone that relies on the progress another human makes (up to 65 in our case, if you include a form class and maths set as I have, being a primary teacher) should realise how difficult that can be. They are people after all, not a machine or a robot. All children progress at different speeds and in different subjects or skills outside of maths, english or science - we are being forced to ignore the musician, the artist, the sportsman and the negotiator...
However, we do all still keep working as hard as we can, mostly for 60+ hours a week (you'll know what that feels like if you really do it in your job), often more to try to ensure this happens. We are contracted to work 32.5 hours a week. On our salaries, that would be very good money. The reality is that no one enters the profession to become materialisically wealthy and this strike is not about pay.
Finally, our 'very generous pensions' don't come for free. I pay in excess of £350 per month in to my pension. After nine years of teaching, my current pension valuation, annually is £3,975 - do you still think this is a very generous pension? I appreciate that should I remain in the profession for 40 years it will be a very welcome reward for a lifetime service, but I am certainly not going to be rich. The pension contribution was increased 18 months ago following a previous increase and change in pensions in 2007 to ensure the teachering pension was affordable. The government need only show teachers how the current pension set up isn't affordable and a huge element of what we are complaining about not being listened to about would be removed. We know that it is affordable and that's why this data is being withheld.
I want my children (I have four) to be taught by inspired, enthusiastic, creative energetic teachers. We are there already, but there is a huge danger of not having them in the future. 68 is way too late and I suspect, as other posters have mentioned, that many will 'retire' and then have to wait for their pensions to kick in. I hope there are plenty that are financially able to do so.
Please try to understand the role and job of a teacher before making sweeping statements. Some have posted that they know teachers, know what they earn and that they simply don't understand the strike. I am very confused by this and would love to know where they teach because I work in an amazing school with phenomenally talented people and almost to a person they all support the strike (even if they are not a member of the NUT).
I really trust it works out well for all concerned - that's all of you that are either still in education or that have or one day will have children / grand children of your own that you want to send to positive thriving schools full of qualified, talented teachers. At the moment, that isn't very likely unless drastic action (like losing £100 that my family can scarcely afford) takes place.
Kaiser_Soze
Who is Kaiser Soze??
- Apr 14, 2008
- 1,355
More money than ever is put into education and support for the little people and we seem to turning out arrogant,disrespectful little urchins,short sharp shock is what they need,bring in the army,universities i've never heard the like
So what about the role of parents in all of this? It is a teachers job to TEACH children not bring them up. When you have kids that get to primary school at 4-5 years of age, who cannot read or write or are toilet trained it's a disgrace.
Teachers already have many great benefits, such as 8-12 weeks worth of holidays, nice working hours, nice working conditions, the best pension scheme and little job pressure. Sure, you have marking and planning to do, but imagine working at a bank? Imagine running your own business? That's real pressure and job insecurity! Public sector workers always complain though... So what can you do?
shaolinpunk
[Insert witty title here]
Not sure if serious.
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Czechmate
Well-known member
You may be right but many studied in the UK , China is the largest overseas population of students in higher education (universities) according to figures in 2011/12 and growing .
D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
My wife is a teacher, I also run my own business. My wife suffers far more stress than I do and works harder.
I suppose you live in the real world like me then?
I am assuming you were born in 1993. I am embarrassed for you. Your callow comments are way way off.
Both my parents are teachers actually, and I've worked voluntary at two schools (one was a special needs school too) over the past two years. From my experience, the issues raised by teachers are being exaggerated. My short lived experience though was only with children aged 11 and under. But the teachers working at these places (won't name) seemed very relaxed. None of them complained about anything, no issued about job pressure, working conditions or pay where mentioned during staff meetings.
Nibble
New member
- Jan 3, 2007
- 19,238
Let's be fair, teacher's don't have it all bad at all. I'm sure many would agree there are some great perks to the job. However, some very fundamental building blocks of their job are being changed without consultation and they need to stand their ground. They are not striking for MORE perks/money but to maintain the very basics of how your children are educated. The more performance based criteria teachers have to adhere to, the more good ones will leave the profession and you will be left with, in some cases, unqualified, stressed out class teachers rushing kids through education. You will see many kids with less academic proclivities fall by the wayside. Now, in years gone by we had industry to offer those kids work, paid apprenticeships to offer them a working life. We don't anymore. It does not bode well for the future of our country.
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Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121
Yep, pretty much this - although they need to sort out their PR a bit better. They could do with a Bob Crow type leader too. Someone with the minerals to take on Gove publicly.
Be specific please...
Are you disagreeing with 8-12 weeks holiday?
Healthy pensions?
Nice working conditions?
Job pressure?
Of course there's an element of job pressure, EVERY job has that. I'm not saying there's no pressure, because there obviously is. There's probably more pressure than many jobs, but that's compensated with great pensions and time off!
Okay, let's compare to other jobs...
Working 8-5 (teachers) compared to postmen (4-12) or night shift workers??
Breaks regularly during the day... Regulations state workers are entitled to 30 mins every 6 hours, I'm almost certain teachers get more that that
Working in a classroom compared to an office or on a building site??
Having to deal with the pressure of working with children or running your own business?? I'm young, so my views are based on what I've seen in the world. I have in firsthand views to draw upon, but I strongly believe teachers exaggerate the issues raised, especially when considering the benefits the job has (more than most I would say).
Kaiser_Soze
Who is Kaiser Soze??
- Apr 14, 2008
- 1,355
Either you're certain or you aren't. This comment highlights the need for quality teaching most clearly. I was generally in middle/top sets at school so I didn't see too much of the nightmare that dealing with bottom sets (either through lack of intelligence and inability to grasp simple points, or shockingly bad behaviour.) However I have since had my eyes opened to how difficult it can be. Perhaps you are viewing things from your own ivory tower? Also we need to differentiate between primary and secondary schools. Both have their own challenges, some similar and some different but I would suggest that teaching in a secondary school is overall more difficult.
Nibble
New member
- Jan 3, 2007
- 19,238
I think you need to look further into why they are striking. Some people don't strike for personal gain.
Perkino
Well-known member
- Dec 11, 2009
- 6,053
As a teacher who has trained at uni for 4 years without receiving any sort of golden handshake to do so or pay throughout I was shocked to discover that my starting salary of £21,500 was less than my best friend who dropped out of college to work in a bakery for 2 years before getting a job in a financial institution in London as an office assistant aged 19 and earning a starting wage of £24,000 as well as a quarterly bonus.
The pay is not great, I can never take a day off to do things I may wish to like attend my best friends wedding and during term time I regularly work a 70 hour week foolishly believing that this will decrease as my experience grows. 3 years in and no sign of that happening. With a teaching timetable of 21 hours per week that's almost 50 hours of marking, planning lesson, monitoring pupils progress and attending staff meetings or training. I am one of those who has been in the profession less than 5 years and is considering a change of employment due to the low amount of my working life being spent actually teaching
The pay is not great, I can never take a day off to do things I may wish to like attend my best friends wedding and during term time I regularly work a 70 hour week foolishly believing that this will decrease as my experience grows. 3 years in and no sign of that happening. With a teaching timetable of 21 hours per week that's almost 50 hours of marking, planning lesson, monitoring pupils progress and attending staff meetings or training. I am one of those who has been in the profession less than 5 years and is considering a change of employment due to the low amount of my working life being spent actually teaching
shaolinpunk
[Insert witty title here]
Plus all of the hours they do outside of work. If you factor that in they've done their contracted hours long before the week is up
Nonsense - they're lucky to get a proper lunchbreak.
There's pressure with any job but do you seriously think teaching 30 children (complete with proper lesson planning and feedback) that will go on to shape society while the targets that this is measured by are changed at the whim of an incompetent minister is easy and pressure-free?