Sweden’s Coronovirus strategy will soon be the worlds

[darkwolf666]

Because maybe these numbers arent telling the entire story?

These numbers say nothing about the effects on the economy and the economys effect on health. They say nothing about the health effects of less opportunity to go outdoors and get "everyday" excercise. They say nothing about domestic violence. They say nothing about the effects of kids and young adults dropping their normal life and getting a new isolated lifestyle - computer games and betting and other bullshit. They say nothing about the consequences of a second wave, potentially lasting longer.

Yes lockdown is fantastic if you want to decrease numbers of deaths today but if there's a tomorrow the story gets different. We have a long traditions of being pseudo commies here, we wont ruin our society just because it looks better on the immediate "scoresheet".

Also, unlike most, we had no option.

You are starting to sound like Boris defending DC!

 

[Triggaaar]

Because maybe these numbers arent telling the entire story?

These numbers say nothing about the effects on the economy and the economys effect on health. They say nothing about the health effects of less opportunity to go outdoors and get "everyday" excercise. They say nothing about domestic violence. They say nothing about the effects of kids and young adults dropping their normal life and getting a new isolated lifestyle - computer games and betting and other bullshit. They say nothing about the consequences of a second wave, potentially lasting longer.

In which case it's too early to suggest that following Sweden's method would have been a good idea for the UK.

Also, unlike most, we had no option.

Why didn't you?

 

[Swansman]

You are starting to sound like Boris defending DC!

Care to elaborate?

In which case it's too early to suggest that following Sweden's method would have been a good idea for the UK.

Yes I agree, way too early. But its also way too early to say suggest the opposite.

Why didn't you?

1. First and foremost our economy. Its bad. Its really, really bad. We're the next Greece, could go from prosperity to total collapse over night. Especially the household debts are a ticking time bomb. Our financial sector is concentrated but gigantic in comparison to the size of the country.

If we reach unemployment of say 20%, we collapse. I dont believe any other country are even close to our very sensitive situation. The things you here about our wealth... very old stuff. We cant risk our economy, we're on a very thin line.

2. About 10% of our population came in the last ten years. Its not wealthy or well-educated immigrants, its very poor and uneducated people that we have failed to integrate. Most live in "no-go zones", gigantic concrete suburbs.

These people are miserable. War damaged. I live in one of these areas, I hear shooting every other day, I hear the yelling and screaming in my building. If you lock these people up, its a disaster. In some of these apartments there are 10-20 people living sharing two rooms.

A lockdown would result in a domestic violence epidemic here.

3. Geographically it is impossible to enforce a lockdown in Sweden. Its too big and too spread out. Yes we are heavily urbanized but our cities are still very spread out over the country and the police force is small (20 000).

4. We only have about 570 ventilators. The smallest number per capita in the western world. And, while we may be right or wrong on this subject, our scientists believe that if we kill the virus spread totally our capacity wont be enough if it spikes and there's no immunity. The target is to constantly have 20% free ICU capacity rather than having 50% at some points and being say 30% over capacity at some points.

A lot of scientists, including ours, believe that the second wave will be stronger and last longer. If we go into the second wave with no immunity and the slimmest health care system in Europe, we're very likely to be royally ****ed. We wouldnt be able to cope. I know you've had your share of NHS cuts in the UK but its a piss in the water compared to the downsizing here.

5. Juridically its impossible or close to impossible. We havent been in a war for 200 years (aside from participating in some EU bombing of some poor nation I cant remember).

Our government dont have the powers to enforce any "martial law". Our constitution is very strong and the possiblity of changing it over night seemingly entirely impossible even if the whole government and the parliament would agree to do it.

 

[e77]

No they dont suggest anything like that.

No one is returning to full normality for a long, long time and a lot will happen before that. Most likely, the virus will return and we are likely to have more immunity than they do. Chances are big that we will be able to keep going with our low curve while they need to lockdown again as their population have little immunity.

So Sweden with more infections will return to normal sooner than countries with less infections? Okey dokey skip.

 

[El Presidente]

Has Sweden met its Waterloo?

 

[Swansman]

So Sweden with more infections will return to normal sooner than countries with less infections? Okey dokey skip.

Yes, probably. Logically that would be the case, as more infections now should lead to less infections in the fall and winter.

 

[e77]

Yes, probably. Logically that would be the case, as more infections now should lead to less infections in the fall and winter.

As we don't actually know how long immunity lasts yet that is built on a massive assumption.

 

[Stockholm Syndrome]

So Sweden with more infections will return to normal sooner than countries with less infections? Okey dokey skip.

Life in Stockholm is already more or less normal at the moment. Everything is open except the football.

 

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Patknull med Haksprut

Spelling is incorrect should be ”Pattknull”.

 

[e77]

Life in Stockholm is already more or less normal at the moment. Everything is open except the football.

With, so I am told by the graph a few posts above, an infection rate that is going down slower than the US.

 

[Swansman]

As we don't actually know how long immunity lasts yet that is built on a massive assumption.

Even if the immunity wouldnt last long, close to every virus is less harmful the next time it hits you and making the assumption that covid-19 dont work in the same way would be a massive assumption..

 

[e77]

Even if the immunity wouldnt last long, close to every virus is less harmful the next time it hits you and making the assumption that covid-19 dont work in the same way would be a massive assumption..

In fairness dead people don't catch it again either.

I am not making an assumption about immunity to Covid-19 after getting it and as we have only known about it for six months neither should anyone else be.

 

[Dr Bandler]

Care to elaborate?

2. About 10% of our population came in the last ten years. Its not wealthy or well-educated immigrants, its very poor and uneducated people that we have failed to integrate. Most live in "no-go zones", gigantic concrete suburbs.

These people are miserable. War damaged. I live in one of these areas, I hear shooting every other day, I hear the yelling and screaming in my building. If you lock these people up, its a disaster. In some of these apartments there are 10-20 people living sharing two rooms.

A lockdown would result in a domestic violence epidemic here.

.

Very interesting and subtle inference here, that is easy to miss on a first or quick read. You insinuate that you, as the host country, are responsible for their integration. How about a two-way street on responsibility for this? Otherwise, you continue to perpetrate a victim mentality in the migrants, and they will never take responsibility. What has happened with immigration into Sweden calls into question the wisdom of an otherwise well-intentioned policy - it has ended in a shambles.

I also sincerely hope that you don't suffer becuase of your Coronavirus policy, but fear you may.

 

[Weststander]

Very interesting and subtle inference here, that is easy to miss on a first or quick read. You insinuate that you, as the host country, are responsible for their integration. How about a two-way street on responsibility for this? Otherwise, you continue to perpetrate a victim mentality in the migrants, and they will never take responsibility. What has happened with immigration into Sweden calls into question the wisdom of an otherwise well-intentioned policy - it has ended in a shambles.

I also sincerely hope that you don't suffer becuase of your Coronavirus policy, but fear you may.

It has.

We have good friends in Sweden, who say there’s huge resentment amongst Swedes living in towns and cities other than Stockholm, angry that immigrants were thrust into their communities with no plan to integrate them.

There’s plenty of racism through all age groups. Our friends have teen kids, brought up in Brighton until they were junior school age, who say they’re virtually the only non-racists in their classes. Their classmates openly condemn the immigrants for their skin colour.

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes I agree, way too early. But its also way too early to say suggest the opposite.

I wasn't suggesting the opposite, but simply countenancing the suggestion we should have followed Sweden.

1. First and foremost our economy. Its bad. Its really, really bad. We're the next Greece, could go from prosperity to total collapse over night.

If you could be the next Greece, then you're not as bad as Greece, and they've had a lockdown. Is your economy really worse than the likes of Italy or Spain? I don't see how they had a choice, but Sweden didn't.

 

[Swansman]

Very interesting and subtle inference here, that is easy to miss on a first or quick read. You insinuate that you, as the host country, are responsible for their integration. How about a two-way street on responsibility for this? Otherwise, you continue to perpetrate a victim mentality in the migrants, and they will never take responsibility. What has happened with immigration into Sweden calls into question the wisdom of an otherwise well-intentioned policy - it has ended in a shambles.

I also sincerely hope that you don't suffer becuase of your Coronavirus policy, but fear you may.

Under normal circumstances I would agree its a two-way street but the way we did it here, it is our responsibility. We stood there with open arms and some "come here, we're gonna save you all!" attitude and then we put them in some concrete jungle with our for 30 years downsized state having no ability or competence to show these immigrants the way in to society.

We succeeded in integrating South Americans in the 80s and Yugoslavians in the 90s through actively supporting their participation in culture and education but the people arriving the last ten years has not even been given a chance, so I think its far more our fault than theirs. Sure, the Syrians could elbow their way through as they are well-educated and come from a largely secular country like ours but to those less similar to us we havent built any bridges and then you get a dysfunctional, segregated society like ours.

 

[LamieRobertson]

In fairness dead people don't catch it again either.

I am not making an assumption about immunity to Covid-19 after getting it and as we have only known about it for six months neither should anyone else be.

Nicely put

 

[LamieRobertson]

Under normal circumstances I would agree its a two-way street but the way we did it here, it is our responsibility. We stood there with open arms and some "come here, we're gonna save you all!" attitude and then we put them in some concrete jungle with our for 30 years downsized state having no ability or competence to show these immigrants the way in to society.

We succeeded in integrating South Americans in the 80s and Yugoslavians in the 90s through actively supporting their participation in culture and education but the people arriving the last ten years has not even been given a chance, so I think its far more our fault than theirs. Sure, the Syrians could elbow their way through as they are well-educated and come from a largely secular country like ours but to those less similar to us we havent built any bridges and then you get a dysfunctional, segregated society like ours.

What? This can’t be so ..only our country gets it wrong....are you saying others do too.

 

[Swansman]

What? This can’t be so ..only our country gets it wrong....are you saying others do too.

Its sad isnt it. Every country that got the neo-liberal mental illness are having these issues. Its almost as if the obsession with competition and individualism makes it difficult to collaborate collectively.

 

[Dr Bandler]

Its sad isnt it. Every country that got the neo-liberal mental illness are having these issues. Its almost as if the obsession with competition and individualism makes it difficult to collaborate collectively.

Steady, now you are getting near a truth which can be classified as spiritual, philosphical or psychological. Whichever way you categorise it, it is a very uncomfortable truth that is afflicting the world. At a time when it is easier to commuicate than ever before, and in many ways we are more entwined than ever whith each other (economically, technologically) we are drifting futher apart as people and living as self-interested individuals. The corollary is that, maybe through guilt, we feel we have to "help others" and "be good citizens", but only from a distance, and so you get support for the mental illness that is modern liberalism, and the resulting ill-thought out policies, which do not work, but are good to assuage the conscience.