Swann vs Pietersen

[Hiney]

Neither. Both great players, and both important personalities within the England camp.

This

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Neither. Both great players, and both important personalities within the England camp.

Not quite right...they are both very good players and both important personalities within the England camp.
The word great is bandied about right, left and centre these days but if you keep using the ultimate superlative then you are categorising a lot of players together.
They are both fortunate in playing a lot of Test cricket in the last 4-5 years, when the game at the highest level, has generally lacked a lot of real class. England are 3-0 up in this series with only one batsman in any real form! Where are the top class spinners or pace bowlers. At the moment people can't see beyond Dale Steyn or Jimmy Anderson.
It is one of the poorest periods of Test cricket in terms of quality. Batsmen are filling their boots v second rate bowling and good bowlers like Swann are cleaning up lots of non-top class batsmen.
Its not their fault. They can only perform in their era against current players. Gooch, Broad, Gower, Lamb, Gatting and Botham was a far, far superior batting line-up than ours currently but was regularly blown away by world-class W. Indian quicks. Pieterson, Trott and Cook with their technical problems would have failed regularly against that lot.
They are both top players currently but do not deserve the ' great ' epithet. Maybe, when their respective careers are over and we see what they have achieved, we can think about the right adjective. In this current era of sub-standard test teams ( and don't get carried away with England...they are nothing special ) runs and wickets are easier to come by and Pieterson and Swann are two of the main beneficiaries.
I'm not concerned whether they are knobs or not, just how they perform. I don't care what test average KP has, it should be higher. He should be averaging well over 60 in tests. Against the current bowling attacks he should be filling his boots. Instead he gets too many cameo 30's and 40's. Charging down the wicket, in cavalier fashion, he is trying to disrupt the bowlers rhythm but he is a better player than that. He has an amazing eye and good reach but continually plays shots off balance.
Swann is more consistent and approaching top class but not quite yet.
Time will tell if they are allowed into that club called great...the club that includes the like of Bradman, Sobers, Richards, Warne and Tendulkar. They are not in that class.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Not quite right...they are both very good players and both important personalities within the England camp.
The word great is bandied about right, left and centre these days but if you keep using the ultimate superlative then you are categorising a lot of players together.
They are both fortunate in playing a lot of Test cricket in the last 4-5 years, when the game at the highest level, has generally lacked a lot of real class. England are 3-0 up in this series with only one batsman in any real form! Where are the top class spinners or pace bowlers. At the moment people can't see beyond Dale Steyn or Jimmy Anderson.
It is one of the poorest periods of Test cricket in terms of quality. Batsmen are filling their boots v second rate bowling and good bowlers like Swann are cleaning up lots of non-top class batsmen.
Its not their fault. They can only perform in their era against current players. Gooch, Broad, Gower, Lamb, Gatting and Botham was a far, far superior batting line-up than ours currently but was regularly blown away by world-class W. Indian quicks. Pieterson, Trott and Cook with their technical problems would have failed regularly against that lot.
They are both top players currently but do not deserve the ' great ' epithet. Maybe, when their respective careers are over and we see what they have achieved, we can think about the right adjective. In this current era of sub-standard test teams ( and don't get carried away with England...they are nothing special ) runs and wickets are easier to come by and Pieterson and Swann are two of the main beneficiaries.
I'm not concerned whether they are knobs or not, just how they perform. I don't care what test average KP has, it should be higher. He should be averaging well over 60 in tests. Against the current bowling attacks he should be filling his boots. Instead he gets too many cameo 30's and 40's. Charging down the wicket, in cavalier fashion, he is trying to disrupt the bowlers rhythm but he is a better player than that. He has an amazing eye and good reach but continually plays shots off balance.
Swann is more consistent and approaching top class but not quite yet.
Time will tell if they are allowed into that club called great...the club that includes the like of Bradman, Sobers, Richards, Warne and Tendulkar. They are not in that class.

Whilst I'd actually agree that this is not a vintage era of Test cricket (lacking in particular, a strong West Indies and consistency from India) I think your argument is a little churlish. There is no point in trying to compare players from different eras - you simply can't make a meaningful comparison. All you can accurately gauge is how they stack up against their peers. Pietersen's stats (whilst there is absolutely some room to improve them) are fantastic. He's been one of the best players in the world for years. If it were so 'easy' a dozen others would have over-taken him.

Similarly Swann. He's currently the best slow bowler in the WORLD. If it were simply a case of average batsmen handing over their wickets, why are there not three like him in every Test side.

Great players, both.

 

[Commander]

So entering the world from the womb of an English women not enough for you then?

No. (It is really, I was only joking).

 

[spring hall convert]

Whilst I'd actually agree that this is not a vintage era of Test cricket (lacking in particular, a strong West Indies and consistency from India) I think your argument is a little churlish. There is no point in trying to compare players from different eras - you simply can't make a meaningful comparison. All you can accurately gauge is how they stack up against their peers. Pietersen's stats (whilst there is absolutely some room to improve them) are fantastic. He's been one of the best players in the world for years. If it were so 'easy' a dozen others would have over-taken him.

Similarly Swann. He's currently the best slow bowler in the WORLD. If it were simply a case of average batsmen handing over their wickets, why are there not three like him in every Test side.
Great players, both.

Swann would be the best slow bowler in the world if every batsman were left handed, otherwise it's Saeed Ajmal isn't it? He certainly made England look rather foolish in Abu Dhabi. Repeatedly.

Interestingly both Ajmal & Swann were very late to Test cricket.... I think there's something to be said for a spinner learning their craft.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Swann would be the best slow bowler in the world if every batsman were left handed, otherwise it's Saeed Ajmal isn't it? He certainly made England look rather foolish in Abu Dhabi. Repeatedly.

Interestingly both Ajmal & Swann were very late to Test cricket.... I think there's something to be said for a spinner learning their craft.

Good bowler.

I find it hard to take the Tests in Dubai, etc completely seriously, to be honest. The conditions are so extreme - so much turn.

 

[spring hall convert]

Good bowler.

I find it hard to take the Tests in Dubai, etc completely seriously, to be honest. The conditions are so extreme - so much turn.

He gave us all sorts of trouble over here as well didn't he? Pakistan's attack in that series was as good as anything else I've seen in recent years Ajmal, Amir, Asif & Riaz.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

He gave us all sorts of trouble over here as well didn't he? Pakistan's attack in that series was as good as anything else I've seen in recent years Ajmal, Amir, Asif & Riaz.

Were England really 'troubled' by that attack? Challenged, as they should be in a Test series, but I'd reserve 'troubled' for the UAE Tests, and the South Africa series. Steyn really troubled us.

The Muhammed Amir thing is a great shame, though. He really looked promising.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Were England really 'troubled' by that attack? Challenged, as they should be in a Test series, but I'd reserve 'troubled' for the UAE Tests, and the South Africa series. Steyn really troubled us.

The Muhammed Amir thing is a great shame, though. He really looked promising.

His ban will be up in 2015 and he was only 19 when banned, so expect Pakistan to pick him again.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Whilst I'd actually agree that this is not a vintage era of Test cricket (lacking in particular, a strong West Indies and consistency from India) I think your argument is a little churlish. There is no point in trying to compare players from different eras - you simply can't make a meaningful comparison. All you can accurately gauge is how they stack up against their peers. Pietersen's stats (whilst there is absolutely some room to improve them) are fantastic. He's been one of the best players in the world for years. If it were so 'easy' a dozen others would have over-taken him.

I am not comparing Swann and Pietersen to other eras just saying that by accident of birth they are fortunate. Pietersen should have better figures than he has got. He chucks it away too many times and should be averaging 60+ He is a rare talent but wastes it sometimes.
Swann is the best spinner in the world and Pietersen is one of the best batsman but I still don't place them in the ' great ' category, yet. This is reserved for a very few. Would either of them make a cricketing hall of fame at the moment...no.
Most of this gentle discussion revolves around use of the word ' great ' As you've guessed, I have a bee in my bonnet about its overuse. I've read posters on here describing BHA footballers as ' great ' If you keep using it, you run out of words for the very best...' supremely great...exceptionally great....very great....etc '
Great on its own should suffice for the very best.