[News] Sturgeon et al lose indyref2 court case

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I know that’s what the SNP are saying, but actually I was a bit surprised about how quickly that argument was dismissed on Newsnight with essentially saying that you can’t ever run a general election on a single policy because there are so many other factors involved that can’t be ignored. I’d have to watch it again to get the facts but it didn’t even seem up for debate from what I recall them saying.

Technically yes, but there is also the KEY policy.

Tory in 2019. Boris standing behind a "Get Brexit Done" sign. You can't tell me that when they were voted in, if they failed to get "brexit done", people would have said "well, at least they are working on the other policies in their manifesto"

 

[Weststander]

All of that may be true, but since 1973 Ireland has gone from being a backwater with an economy based almost entirely on agricultural to having enhanced global standing, a diverse economy and a much higher standard of living. The Irish were once - literally - a joke nation, but now they are a proper outfit.

I think what will happen in time is Irish reunification will happen before anything in Scotland. Westminster will not be able to fob Northern Ireland off like they can Scotland because The Good Friday Agreement makes provision for the will of the Northern Irish people in a future border poll, while the Northern Ireland Executive has been a car crash. Similarly, there is now a Catholic majority in the North and a majority of young voters when polled favour a United Ireland. The direction of travel is only one way.

I can see Irish unification within the next 20 years and once this happens the call for Scottish independence will automatically have fresh impetus and legitimacy.

Portugal too, I spent a summer there in 87, behind the resort facades it was a very poor and cheap place, just a quasi-western economy. EU grants transformed much of these fringe nations.

Ireland - that's obvious, demographics simply. The Catholic and Republican population marches on.

Scotland - your posts always have an air of a repressed peoples, held back by those Tories or simply the English. Are you Scottish? I work with many Scots and I spent much time up there. I've not met an SNP supporter yet. Just Labour, Tory or apolitical folk who love the Union. Alastair Darling had a great quote once on the raison d'etre of Salmond, I wish I could remember it. Along the lines of he/they seek to create division, including manipulating the English/Welsh into detesting Scots.

It really is not a Catalonia or Ukraine. There isn't a landslide of aggrieved, trodden masses waiting to break free from the UK. The SNP lost.

Time will tell.

 

[PeterT]

Technically yes, but there is also the KEY policy.

Tory in 2019. Boris standing behind a "Get Brexit Done" sign. You can't tell me that when they were voted in, if they failed to get "brexit done", people would have said "well, at least they are working on the other policies in their manifesto"

Supposition really, we’ll never know.

We can say that even though he was possibly voted in to ‘get Brexit done‘ (whatever that means), it has been other factors and other things the Tories have done that have made them unpopular. So it shows how you can’t just say that you stand on one policy and one achievement alone, because even if you achieve that all of the others have the potential to be relevant in differing degrees at different times. That’s why a general election is not the same as a referendum.

 

[PeterT]

Portugal too, I spent a summer there in 87, behind the resort facades it was a very poor and cheap place, just a quasi-western economy. EU grants transformed much of these fringe nations.

Ireland - that's obvious, demographics simply. The Catholic and Republican population marches on.

Scotland - your posts always have an air of a repressed peoples, held back by those Tories or simply the English. Are you Scottish? I work with many Scots and I spent much time up there. I've not met an SNP supporter yet. Just Labour, Tory or apolitical folk who love the Union. Alastair Darling had a great quote once on the raison d'etre of Salmond, I wish I could remember it. Along the lines of he/they seek to create division, including manipulating the English/Welsh into detesting Scots.

It really is not a Catalonia or Ukraine. There isn't a landslide of aggrieved, trodden masses waiting to break free from the UK. The SNP lost.

Time will tell.

There were a few good quotes last night on this along the lines of the Scots having the assembly they wanted and instead of trying to use the powers they already have in trying to get devolution to work, they just want to grab more power without having used the ones they already have!

That Holyrood power grab is also hated by the Shetland Isles, Orkney and the Western Isles who all voted to stay in the Union. It has been said that some of these are already exploring independence (Shetland at least) from Scotland should Scotland get independence from the U.K. and of course wee Jimmie would not want to deny them democracy! Their allegiance is to the Crown, I recall, not to Scotland, so it’s not beyond the realms that they became Crown dependencies (might not be the right term) in the same way the Channel Islands are. That would be a very interesting development, however unlikely it currently seems.

 

[PeterT]

All of that may be true, but since 1973 Ireland has gone from being a backwater with an economy based almost entirely on agricultural to having enhanced global standing, a diverse economy and a much higher standard of living. The Irish were once - literally - a joke nation, but now they are a proper outfit.

I think what will happen in time is Irish reunification will happen before anything in Scotland. Westminster will not be able to fob Northern Ireland off like they can Scotland because The Good Friday Agreement makes provision for the will of the Northern Irish people in a future border poll, while the Northern Ireland Executive has been a car crash. Similarly, there is now a Catholic majority in the North and a majority of young voters when polled favour a United Ireland. The direction of travel is only one way.

I can see Irish unification within the next 20 years and once this happens the call for Scottish independence will automatically have fresh impetus and legitimacy.

This potentially makes the assumption that all Catholics in Northern Ireland are Republicans and want a united Ireland, which I believe isn’t quite as clear as all that, and that all of Southern Ireland want to import all the hassles, problems and issues of Northern Ireland into their otherwise peaceful country, which plenty do not.

20 years is also likely too soon. I do agree that it’s the direction of travel based on demographics, but don’t underestimate the position of the Unionists who would be unlikely to accept such an arrangement in such a short time if at all, whatever the Good Friday Agreement says. And forcing it on them is hardly going to be an easy option either, it would have to be a ‘hearts and minds’ process that would likely take more like 50 years to become relevant.

 

[TugWilson]

This has less to do with independency than firmly placing sturgeons name in Scottish history a la Robert the Bruce .

 

[Triggaaar]

I'm not remotely confused. You're wrong: you stated that the SNP/Scottish independence movement is seeking to unilaterally declare independence; I stated that they wanted a referendum on the issue of independence.

No, you are mistaken. I did not say that the SNP want to unilaterally declare independence, I said:

This. Different parts of any country don't automatically have the right to declare independence.

That says nothing about whether or not they'd have a referendum. The fact is, Scotland do not have the right to declare independence. They do not have the right to have a referendum on independence. Neither does England, because England isn't a country,

I could even speculate as to what is motivating your error

Well I've not made an error, you have. That aside, I have no idea what motivation you're talking about. I'm just stating the truth.

 

[Triggaaar]

Not following you there. I didn't say Scotland is a county (not even as a typo as far as I can see).

My bad, I typed county when I meant to type country.

 

[Reddleman]

I live in Scotland.

It all smoke and mirrors from the SNP, as always. Sure they win election after election but when it comes to total votes cast there are always a majority for pro union parties. It’s simple mathematics all pro independence votes go to one party and the pro union votes are split three ways. It’s why making the next General Election a de-facto referendum such a risky never mind ridiculous idea.

Opinion polls relentlessly show that the Scottish people don’t want another referendum in the SNP’s declared timescales and in the event there was one would vote for the union in any case.

There are two routes to independence, the first is to take the powers that you have and make Scotland a materially better place with how you use those powers. The SNP doesn’t have the capability or competence to do this so they take the second route. They great as much grievance as they can and blame Westminster for literally everything. Typical toxic nationalism.

Scotland under this horrendous govt is a total sh!tshow. Education standards, once the crown jewel, have plummeted. She’s missed every health target that she herself set. Highest drug and alcohol deaths in the UK, lowest life expectancy. A growing attainment gap, the shambles of the named persons act, the diabolical gender recognition act. There’s also corruption on a scale that would make Tories blush (the ferries debacle, Rangers prosecution; Alex Salmond case and Gupta). People have a bizarre notion she did well on Covid, Scotland had the longest hardest restrictions of anywhere in the UK and yet had the highest excess death rate. Like everything they do, it was more smoke and mirrors.

Rant over.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

My bad, I typed county when I meant to type country.

I am genuinely shocked. You? A typo?

I'm going to have to have a sit down.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I live in Scotland.

It all smoke and mirrors from the SNP, as always. Sure they win election after election but when it comes to total votes cast there are always a majority for pro union parties. It’s simple mathematics all pro independence votes go to one party and the pro union votes are split three ways. It’s why making the next General Election a de-facto referendum such a risky never mind ridiculous idea.

Opinion polls relentlessly show that the Scottish people don’t want another referendum in the SNP’s declared timescales and in the event there was one would vote for the union in any case.

There are two routes to independence, the first is to take the powers that you have and make Scotland a materially better place with how you use those powers. The SNP doesn’t have the capability or competence to do this so they take the second route. They great as much grievance as they can and blame Westminster for literally everything. Typical toxic nationalism.

Scotland under this horrendous govt is a total sh!tshow. Education standards, once the crown jewel, have plummeted. She’s missed every health target that she herself set. Highest drug and alcohol deaths in the UK, lowest life expectancy. A growing attainment gap, the shambles of the named persons act, the diabolical gender recognition act. There’s also corruption on a scale that would make Tories blush (the ferries debacle, Rangers prosecution; Alex Salmond case and Gupta). People have a bizarre notion she did well on Covid, Scotland had the longest hardest restrictions of anywhere in the UK and yet had the highest excess death rate. Like everything they do, it was more smoke and mirrors.

Rant over.

The agenda hijacked by a 'nationalist' party. Whatever next?

Just listening to R5's Brazil correspondent discussing how the supporters of the right wing prat president who lost his election recently are hijacking the Brazil shirt as they petition the army to mount a coup to prevent the non prat non right wing winner of the election taking office. Consequently some Brazil supporters are wearing an alternative top. It will be interesting to see what transpires later....

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No, you are mistaken. I did not say that the SNP want to unilaterally declare independence, I said:


That says nothing about whether or not they'd have a referendum. The fact is, Scotland do not have the right to declare independence. They do not have the right to have a referendum on independence. Neither does England, because England isn't a country,


Well I've not made an error, you have. That aside, I have no idea what motivation you're talking about. I'm just stating the truth.

Interesting point you make there about England not being a country. If the UK is a country then, by default, England cannot be. However, this is not my understanding.

A quick google search gives me this:

"The UK – a sovereign state that includes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Great Britain – an island situated off the north west coast of Europe.
British Isles – a collection of over 6,000 islands, of which Great Britain is the largest.
England – a country within the UK."

So, England (and Scotland) are countries but not sovereign states. Happy with that?

The UK, Britain, Great Britain, The British Isles, England - what's the difference?

A commonly mistake to make, but one that can easily upset the locals! Read about the differences between Britain, the…

www.historic-uk.com

 

[PeterT]

I live in Scotland.

It all smoke and mirrors from the SNP, as always. Sure they win election after election but when it comes to total votes cast there are always a majority for pro union parties. It’s simple mathematics all pro independence votes go to one party and the pro union votes are split three ways. It’s why making the next General Election a de-facto referendum such a risky never mind ridiculous idea.

Opinion polls relentlessly show that the Scottish people don’t want another referendum in the SNP’s declared timescales and in the event there was one would vote for the union in any case.

There are two routes to independence, the first is to take the powers that you have and make Scotland a materially better place with how you use those powers. The SNP doesn’t have the capability or competence to do this so they take the second route. They great as much grievance as they can and blame Westminster for literally everything. Typical toxic nationalism.

Scotland under this horrendous govt is a total sh!tshow. Education standards, once the crown jewel, have plummeted. She’s missed every health target that she herself set. Highest drug and alcohol deaths in the UK, lowest life expectancy. A growing attainment gap, the shambles of the named persons act, the diabolical gender recognition act. There’s also corruption on a scale that would make Tories blush (the ferries debacle, Rangers prosecution; Alex Salmond case and Gupta). People have a bizarre notion she did well on Covid, Scotland had the longest hardest restrictions of anywhere in the UK and yet had the highest excess death rate. Like everything they do, it was more smoke and mirrors.

Rant over.

Great post. A very good summary of many of the key points

 

[Super Steve Earle]

I'd agree with you normally but remember the status quo has somewhat changed for every UK nation since we voted to leave the EU. If the people of Scotland think leaving the UK and joining the EU is best for them then let them.

Has their been any indication that the EU would actually allow the Scots to rejoin? Surely there are hoops to go through that Scotland can't manage on their own.

 

[Curious Orange]

Has their been any indication that the EU would actually allow the Scots to rejoin? Surely there are hoops to go through that Scotland can't manage on their own.

The Spanish aren't keen.

 

[Triggaaar]

Interesting point you make there about England not being a country. If the UK is a country then, by default, England cannot be. However, this is not my understanding.

A quick google search gives me this:

"The UK – a sovereign state that includes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Great Britain – an island situated off the north west coast of Europe.
British Isles – a collection of over 6,000 islands, of which Great Britain is the largest.
England – a country within the UK."

So, England (and Scotland) are countries but not sovereign states. Happy with that?

No. This has been debated on here before, so I won't try and bore everyone, but briefly...
There are definitions of what a country is:
Have control of your borders
Have control of your laws
Maybe have your own military, I forget
Be recognised as a country by other countries
Have your own currency (I realise EU countries have chosen to have one currency now - while they also share some laws now, the crux is that they, as we have, always have the right to leave)
Possibly others, I forget.

England and Scotland (and Wales) don't get one tick on that list. Not one.

A lot of people will say we're countries, because they want us to be. A politician certainly can't say we're not, because they'd get a lot of hate etc. We're more like ceremonial countries - we used to be, and we certainly still have strong national identities, but we don't have anything that a country needs to have.

 

[Triggaaar]

I live in Scotland.

It all smoke and mirrors from the SNP, as always. Sure they win election after election but when it comes to total votes cast there are always a majority for pro union parties. It’s simple mathematics all pro independence votes go to one party and the pro union votes are split three ways. It’s why making the next General Election a de-facto referendum such a risky never mind ridiculous idea.

Opinion polls relentlessly show that the Scottish people don’t want another referendum in the SNP’s declared timescales and in the event there was one would vote for the union in any case.

There are two routes to independence, the first is to take the powers that you have and make Scotland a materially better place with how you use those powers. The SNP doesn’t have the capability or competence to do this so they take the second route. They great as much grievance as they can and blame Westminster for literally everything. Typical toxic nationalism.

Scotland under this horrendous govt is a total sh!tshow. Education standards, once the crown jewel, have plummeted. She’s missed every health target that she herself set. Highest drug and alcohol deaths in the UK, lowest life expectancy. A growing attainment gap, the shambles of the named persons act, the diabolical gender recognition act. There’s also corruption on a scale that would make Tories blush (the ferries debacle, Rangers prosecution; Alex Salmond case and Gupta). People have a bizarre notion she did well on Covid, Scotland had the longest hardest restrictions of anywhere in the UK and yet had the highest excess death rate. Like everything they do, it was more smoke and mirrors.

Rant over.

That's a useful insight. I used to game with a Scotsman who. thanks to what I have to assume is Russian style propaganda, was convinced that the GDP per capita in Scotland was higher than in London, and that his taxes were basically funding Londoners.

 

[Doonhamer7]

I‘m not a nationalist by heart (and not a fan of Sturgeon) but what a bunch of patronising drivel - most of you have no idea what being Scottish really means. We are not English, we have our own values, our own laws, our own Church based on society not on hierarchy.

We were sold out several hundred years ago and got on Ok’ish (few religious issues not withstanding) but the last 40+years has created this position of nationalist gain (the Unionist Party was the largest in Scotland in the 50s), aided by Thatcher’s destruction and non-replacement of our industries (which has led to 2million us living down south (I expect you’ll call us illegal immigrants next).

The UK is supposed to be a nation of equals but the “little englander” mentality is destroying it. The reason we should have another vote is one thing the English decided to do which was vote to leave the EU, now you e decided to leave the game has changed. I look forward to the unionist campaign based on “better together“. I didn’t want independence before but I now do want our independence so my children can have Scottish (thus EU) passports and thus have a greater choice of career opportunities which Brexit closed off.

For any Scot reading this remember our country is based on the Declaration if Arbroath:
As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself

I believe we have truly ended up under English rule and unfortunately are not better off because of it, a sad day for democracy.

 

[Triggaaar]

I‘m not a nationalist by heart (and not a fan of Sturgeon) but what a bunch of patronising drivel - most of you have no idea what being Scottish really means.

Did people here say they do know what being Scottish really means? Not a claim I've seen here. We know you have your own values etc, as do we. Do you know what being English means?

The UK is supposed to be a nation of equals but the “little englander” mentality is destroying it.

And what is this 'little englander' mentality you speak of?

For any Scot reading this remember our country is based on the Declaration if Arbroath:
As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself

I believe we have truly ended up under English rule

So you're saying the declaration was wrong then?

 

[Reddleman]

I‘m not a nationalist by heart (and not a fan of Sturgeon) but what a bunch of patronising drivel - most of you have no idea what being Scottish really means. We are not English, we have our own values, our own laws, our own Church based on society not on hierarchy.

We were sold out several hundred years ago and got on Ok’ish (few religious issues not withstanding) but the last 40+years has created this position of nationalist gain (the Unionist Party was the largest in Scotland in the 50s), aided by Thatcher’s destruction and non-replacement of our industries (which has led to 2million us living down south (I expect you’ll call us illegal immigrants next).

The UK is supposed to be a nation of equals but the “little englander” mentality is destroying it. The reason we should have another vote is one thing the English decided to do which was vote to leave the EU, now you e decided to leave the game has changed. I look forward to the unionist campaign based on “better together“. I didn’t want independence before but I now do want our independence so my children can have Scottish (thus EU) passports and thus have a greater choice of career opportunities which Brexit closed off.

For any Scot reading this remember our country is based on the Declaration if Arbroath:
As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself

I believe we have truly ended up under English rule and unfortunately are not better off because of it, a sad day for democracy.

I honestly can’t tell if this is a parody post or not. If not then it’s is absolute unmitigated nonsense.

It’s also, as per all nationalist ramblings, fundamentally dishonest. You claim you want your children to be back in the EU but conveniently fail to mention the austerity and suffering that would be required to meet the EU entry requirements. It would be austerity on a scale never seen in the UK before and it could take a decade at least to achieve the criteria, assuming no other EU member vetos the membership.

There is no economic plan; no plan for growth, no coherent strategy on building a country. I have never felt more passionate about anything in my life than stopping Scottish independence to ensure my kids have the best chance in life. If Brexit was a disaster, Scexit would be a disaster multiplied by ten (and that’s a quote from Sturgeons own economic advisor)

You don’t live here, you won’t even feel the pain, so hypocritical.