Stop this nonsense of Covid passports, ID and masks

[m20gull]

He won’t answer. Never does. He will just scuttle back to Twitter to find some other conspiracy theory to regale us with.

You were indeed correct. I won't waste any more of my time.

 

[Albion Dan]

Well, it was in a response to a completely general question with no references or backup that asked if I'd consider the possibility I was being lied to.

I've taken that to mean "lied to about vaccines" given the thread subject, but if you meant I should consider that I'm being lied to about Burnley's ability to beat us on Saturday then that particular reply is on the wrong thread.

I suspect you were trying to imply I was being lied to about vaccines though, right?

No totally wrong. The vaccine works. What the long term effects are for a never used before technology no one has a clue which is why I’d defend anyone’s right to wait. Where I think you are accepting a lie is that you can’t consider that the entire passport concept is much more around control and loss of liberty than a health protection measure. You are defending a system where the arguments for it make literally no sense in a world where the vaccine allows someone to walk in stadium and pass covid around to potentially kill people but someone who can show via a test they are safe can’t.

 

[e77]

You could touch a surface and pick up the virus on your hands, give someone a tenner from your wallet, and pass it on like that.

True, but there isn't a vaccine in the world that will stop that.

 

[e77]

It's been proven many times in the last year that covid doesn't transmit like that. It's an aerosol and anything less than a properly fitted N95 mask won't help you.

People need to get vaccinated, apart from another strict lockdown vaccines are the only thing proven to work.

I thought it was possible but unlikely to get it off a surface?

 

[Billy the Fish]

It is rarer, but can be transmitted like that.

I thought it was possible but unlikely to get it off a surface?

I had to double check and you're both right. This was quite a good, and seemingly trustworthy, explanation.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

 

[Baldseagull]

Yes anyone questioning whether an injection into their body where the producer has liability waivers such as these is clearly a coward and not somebody with enough ability to think for themselves that they would like to wait before pumping an experimental never before used technology into themselves:

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/...rms-pfizers-international-vaccine-agreements/

Looks like people taking their time over deciding whether to take it are actually the smartest in US society…


“The largest decrease in hesitancy between January and May by education group was in those with a high school education or less. Hesitancy held constant in the most educated group (those with a Ph.D.); by May Ph.D.’s were the most hesitant group. While vaccine hesitancy decreased across virtually all racial groups, Blacks and Pacific Islanders had the largest decreases, joining Hispanics and Asians at having lower vaccine hesitancy than whites in May.”

https://www.upmc.com/media/news/072621-king-mejia-vaccine-hesitancy

Here’s the rub that I haven’t disclose before. I’ve actually had the vaccine. I have had to because of work obligations abroad. I’m actually disgusted that I have had to take it to continue to provide for my family and pay my (very large) mortgage as I fundamentally hate the idea of medical passports and what they will lead to for society. Soon everyone will realise what we have started on the path toward. I’m not even sure most people will realise they have become entirely enslaved forevermore in the name of medicine.

I perfectly understand hesitancy, and wanting to be sure, but waiting to see if others that have had the vaccine are ok before having it is a bit cowardly. You are saying, you go first because I am scared to. The Oxford Astra-Zenica is a Viral Vector vaccine and has been used before for Ebola, take that if mRNA freaks you out.
Liability waivers for AZ seems fair, they are supplying at cost price. Pfeizzer's is a bit more dubious, but as there is a need to vaccinate millions of people, we can't afford to have a slow and cautious roll out, and the UK Government has added the Corona vaccines to it's liability, though it is limited.

The Phd grouping is 1.2% of the US population, and consistently 25% of them were vaccine hesitant in the survey you reference, between January and May. Please understand that this means 75% of them were not hesitant about the vaccine.
The survey was conducted on Facebook, and I suspect the individuals education levels were self reported and not verified, any antivaxer type responding might be tempted to give themselves a somewhat higher level of education than they actually have. Excluding respondents claiming Phd's the trend is that the higher the level of education, the less hesitancy. The survey has not been peer reviewed as yet.

I am not sure you have a grasp on reality, when you say people have become "entirely enslaved forevermore in the name of medicine."

 

[Baldseagull]

No totally wrong. The vaccine works. What the long term effects are for a never used before technology no one has a clue which is why I’d defend anyone’s right to wait. Where I think you are accepting a lie is that you can’t consider that the entire passport concept is much more around control and loss of liberty than a health protection measure. You are defending a system where the arguments for it make literally no sense in a world where the vaccine allows someone to walk in stadium and pass covid around to potentially kill people but someone who can show via a test they are safe can’t.

I will agree that vaccine passports for entry to venues is more about coercion, the coercion though is because greater vaccination rates are required for better public health protection. I am not naive enough to believe that this Government gives two shits about my health, but it does care about the economy, it does want people back at their jobs, it does not want another lock down or return to furlough payments, and ****ers running around without antibodies clogging up the NHS and producing new variants could **** all that up.

Being vaccinated for admission to a venue does mean that if you do pick it up, you will be less likely to suffer a bad case, and less likely to transmit further, so it is useful, but a test should also be required.

 

[Albion Dan]

. I am not naive enough to believe that this Government gives two shits about my health, but it does care about the economy, it does want people back at their jobs, it does not want another lock down or return to furlough payments, and ****ers running around without antibodies clogging up the NHS and producing new variants could **** all that up.

.

9 out of 10 people have anti bodies. Im pretty sure that is as good as it’s ever going to get. Is word global 100% vaccination really what people expect? Ever achievable? You mention government and money. I am highly confident that the transfer of our taxes to big pharma at global scale and cost of billions year on year for a never ending vax programme is profit that is never going to be relinquished easily and a mandatory vax id to unlock life is the only tool that can probably achieve it.

I know people want to discount and even mock that possibility. It’s the psychology of the majority that want to dismiss all conspiracy. Found this a really interesting article. The weird thing is most would agree they have a government that lie to them constantly and are borderline criminal at the same time.

https://off-guardian.org/2021/03/12/on-the-psychology-of-the-conspiracy-denier

 

[Baldseagull]

9 out of 10 people have anti bodies. Im pretty sure that is as good as it’s ever going to get. Is word global 100% vaccination really what people expect? Ever achievable? You mention government and money. I am highly confident that the transfer of our taxes to big pharma at global scale and cost of billions year on year for a never ending vax programme is profit that is never going to be relinquished easily and a mandatory vax id to unlock life is the only tool that can probably achieve it.

I know people want to discount and even mock that possibility. It’s the psychology of the majority that want to dismiss all conspiracy. Found this a really interesting article. The weird thing is most would agree they have a government that lie to them constantly and are borderline criminal at the same time.

https://off-guardian.org/2021/03/12/on-the-psychology-of-the-conspiracy-denier

I have no doubt that our government and others are corrupt, but Jesus man, surely the Worlds Governments have got enough conspiracies going on with the climate change fraud, chemtrails, stealing Trumps election victory, staging mock school shooting massacres. or maybe they have sub contracted this one out to the Illuminati, the Freemasons or Jews?

I mean, there are dozens of conspiracy theories around Covid, how many of them do you subscribe to?

The Virus is man made and deliberately released by China for a range of purposes?
The Virus is fake, and just an excuse for Bill Gates to get a microchip in all of us under the guise of a vaccine?
The virus is spread by 5G masts?
Genetically Modified Crops have produced the virus?
Big Pharma engineered and released the virus?
US Government engineered and released the virus as an attack on China?
Covid death rates are inflated and it's no worse than the flu?

I am sure there are companies out there lobbying for measures around covid that suit their business, exploiting the situation, and there will be people in Governments getting a kickback where they can, but I don't believe that the worlds governments are pushing for us all to be vaccinated just because it's good for their back pocket. Astra Zenica is selling at cost price, are they in the conspiracy just for the PR?

 

[beorhthelm]

9 out of 10 people have anti bodies. Im pretty sure that is as good as it’s ever going to get. Is word global 100% vaccination really what people expect? Ever achievable? You mention government and money. I am highly confident that the transfer of our taxes to big pharma at global scale and cost of billions year on year for a never ending vax programme is profit that is never going to be relinquished easily and a mandatory vax id to unlock life is the only tool that can probably achieve it.

I know people want to discount and even mock that possibility. It’s the psychology of the majority that want to dismiss all conspiracy. Found this a really interesting article. The weird thing is most would agree they have a government that lie to them constantly and are borderline criminal at the same time.

https://off-guardian.org/2021/03/12/on-the-psychology-of-the-conspiracy-denier

do you know how much, and what proportion of the spending on covid response has been paid to pharma companies, and what proportion has gone to other companies providing other services (and ignoring the large amount spent on wider economy support)?

 

[Guinness Boy]

No totally wrong. The vaccine works. What the long term effects are for a never used before technology no one has a clue which is why I’d defend anyone’s right to wait. Where I think you are accepting a lie is that you can’t consider that the entire passport concept is much more around control and loss of liberty than a health protection measure. You are defending a system where the arguments for it make literally no sense in a world where the vaccine allows someone to walk in stadium and pass covid around to potentially kill people but someone who can show via a test they are safe can’t.

The argument for it is that it incentivises people to get the vaccine in order to enjoy normal life. Since you have spent a lot of time on here banging on about how great normal life is and have now categorically stated "the vaccine works" I can't really see how you're against?

If it's purely a civil liberties argument for football fans then I'm afraid that ship has sailed. Without the passport you are tracked on CCTV on your way to the ground whilst you can be pinpointed by the location device on your phone (don't you sell tech that enables that BTW?). The club knows who you are, what games you have been to, what you have bought and where you sit and an angry Tweet after an away defeat can see you getting a long ban. For "difficult" away games like Palace your ticket has been matched to ID for quite a while and tickets for Man City were matched to ID before the use of Covid Passes.

Furthermore, as I pointed out on another thread, the ship has been sailing for quite a while. Thatcher wanted all seater grounds and membership cards and we effectively have that now. Back in the 80s and 90s I was regularly filmed leaving the North Stand by the same two coppers (many on here know who they were). These guys knew everyone in my group, who was trouble and who wasn't, and would regularly appear in the pubs Brighton fans had found at away games.

I think [MENTION=23343]Baldseagull[/MENTION] has raised a good point, that really the pass should be vaccine plus test. Unfortunately LFTs are not 100% accurate and the Covid Pass can, in any case, be gamed. So insisting on double vaccination from October when everyone has had the opportunity to get one is the only sensible way. Hopefully over time there will be an effective and instant test that can be given to people as they approach the ground but I suspect we're a long way off it. Therefore you need to get vaccinated because "the vaccine works".

 

[Albion Dan]

The argument for it is that it incentivises people to get the vaccine in order to enjoy normal life. Since you have spent a lot of time on here banging on about how great normal life is and have now categorically stated "the vaccine works" I can't really see how you're against?

If it's purely a civil liberties argument for football fans then I'm afraid that ship has sailed. Without the passport you are tracked on CCTV on your way to the ground whilst you can be pinpointed by the location device on your phone (don't you sell tech that enables that BTW?). The club knows who you are, what games you have been to, what you have bought and where you sit and an angry Tweet after an away defeat can see you getting a long ban. For "difficult" away games like Palace your ticket has been matched to ID for quite a while and tickets for Man City were matched to ID before the use of Covid Passes.

Furthermore, as I pointed out on another thread, the ship has been sailing for quite a while. Thatcher wanted all seater grounds and membership cards and we effectively have that now. Back in the 80s and 90s I was regularly filmed leaving the North Stand by the same two coppers (many on here know who they were). These guys knew everyone in my group, who was trouble and who wasn't, and would regularly appear in the pubs Brighton fans had found at away games.

I think [MENTION=23343]Baldseagull[/MENTION] has raised a good point, that really the pass should be vaccine plus test. Unfortunately LFTs are not 100% accurate and the Covid Pass can, in any case, be gamed. So insisting on double vaccination from October when everyone has had the opportunity to get one is the only sensible way. Hopefully over time there will be an effective and instant test that can be given to people as they approach the ground but I suspect we're a long way off it. Therefore you need to get vaccinated because "the vaccine works".

It’s not a pass for football that is my issue per se it’s that it will be the thin end of the wedge and will potentially/probably lead to a world where you have to show an id to do most things, pub, shop, work etc. That is a long long way from normal life. It is 1984. For a virus that had a 99.7% survival rate. For which 90% of people have anti bodies. For which everyone who is Vunerable is vaccinated. Once it’s in it will be in forever because like I said there is no way that cash cow is getting let go.

 

[Guinness Boy]

It’s not a pass for football that is my issue per se it’s that it will be the thin end of the wedge and will potentially/probably lead to a world where you have to show an id to do most things, pub, shop, work etc. That is a long long way from normal life. It is 1984. For a virus that had a 99.7% survival rate. For which 90% of people have anti bodies. For which everyone who is Vunerable is vaccinated. Once it’s o. It will be in forever because like I said there is no way that cash cow is getting let go.

That's an argument I have a lot more time for than anti-vaxx. The same sort of things apply as in my other reply - your purchases in a shop are tracked by your phone, card and potentially reward card (Tesco clubcard could, today, be used to identify alcoholics or vegans so long as they shop there for example), you are on CCTV when you queue for a club or sit in a pub or on a train. But "producing your papers" still has a ring to it that no one should like.

Except............

1) this is a health emergency. I am for the Covid Pass now but I do agree with people like [MENTION=27279]dazzer6666[/MENTION] that it should not be permanent
2) our discussion started with your quoting of an article in the Non-MSM that you captioned to make it look like vaccines in Israel were not working - which isn't the case. If you'd said "vaccines work but this is taking civil liberties too far" then we wouldn't agree completely but would be far, far nearer to each other's position.