[Help] Sorry, another tale of woe with builder- advice needed.

[Uncle C]

I have a builder relaying the road to the three properties in our close. There is a fair amount of traffic, so the sub base was well specified to a depth of 300mm. By shifting the type 1 MOT around with his digger the builder has tried to disguise the fact he is skimping on the base. I am insisting on his showing me the depth of the sub base in at least 6 places of my choosing, but am not optimistic the end result will meet the original spec in the quote.

I cant delay the job, as none of us can get cars in or out at present. The builder insists he has been in the game 30 years and he is confident there will be no future problems. I even have a 5 year guarantee for what that's worth with any builder.

Here is my question to be addressed when the drive is fully finished "If the builder has failed to install the sub base to the correct spec is it OK to hold back 10-20% of the bill until sufficient time has past to support his claims."

 

[nwgull]

If your spec that he's quoted against is clear that the sub base should be 300mm and he's failed to meet that, then you're entitled to underpay by 10-20% regardless of how the road holds up over the next 5 years. And I'm fairly sure that any judge would support this if he brought a civil claim.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

Just a thought: Has your road been 'adopted' (or is intended to be at a later date) by the local Highways authority? - if so, it might be worth a phone call for advice or better still to inspect the work & check it meets their specification?

I had success in resolving an issue many years ago when a developer was tardy in laying a final top road surface and also wished to charge each property for a supposed 'ransom strip' between each property and the public highway. The local Highways Dept (ESCC) were excellent.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I have a builder relaying the road to the three properties in our close. There is a fair amount of traffic, so the sub base was well specified to a depth of 300mm. By shifting the type 1 MOT around with his digger the builder has tried to disguise the fact he is skimping on the base. I am insisting on his showing me the depth of the sub base in at least 6 places of my choosing, but am not optimistic the end result will meet the original spec in the quote.

I cant delay the job, as none of us can get cars in or out at present. The builder insists he has been in the game 30 years and he is confident there will be no future problems. I even have a 5 year guarantee for what that's worth with any builder.

Here is my question to be addressed when the drive is fully finished "If the builder has failed to install the sub base to the correct spec is it OK to hold back 10-20% of the bill until sufficient time has past to support his claims."

Sounds like you have a contract with a specification where the depth is clear and was agreed at time of price and starting the contract. If the contractor has not carried out the works in accordance with the contract, then he is in breach of the contract documents. However, you cannot just decide to hold back X% because you suspect he hasn't done it. You would need to follow the terms of the contract in terms of how the breach is dealt with - otherwise if you hold back money just on your suspicion of failure to meet the spec. then you could be in breach of contract yourself leading to a dispute.

On a traditional form of contract, say a JCT minor works / IFC, you have clauses you can invoke that reasonably allow for the uncovering of work to demonstrate compliance. In theory the Type 1 should be compacted in layers, you don't just stick 300mm down and compact it, it should be in say 50mm or so layers, compact, then add another layer and compact. So potentially your seeing him shifting Type 1 about could be that process. The easiest way to have checked the depth would have been when the excavation was done, but I guess that ship has sailed. I'm not sure 6 separate holes is reasonable if upon digging out 3 or 4 randomly selected spots, they're all 300mm or greater, it might be reasonable to conclude the contractor has complied with the spec. obviously if 1 is under 300mm, then you could insist on further holes.

 

[Uncle C]

Sounds like you have a contract with a specification where the depth is clear and was agreed at time of price and starting the contract. If the contractor has not carried out the works in accordance with the contract, then he is in breach of the contract documents. However, you cannot just decide to hold back X% because you suspect he hasn't done it. You would need to follow the terms of the contract in terms of how the breach is dealt with - otherwise if you hold back money just on your suspicion of failure to meet the spec. then you could be in breach of contract yourself leading to a dispute.

On a traditional form of contract, say a JCT minor works / IFC, you have clauses you can invoke that reasonably allow for the uncovering of work to demonstrate compliance. In theory the Type 1 should be compacted in layers, you don't just stick 300mm down and compact it, it should be in say 50mm or so layers, compact, then add another layer and compact. So potentially your seeing him shifting Type 1 about could be that process. The easiest way to have checked the depth would have been when the excavation was done, but I guess that ship has sailed. I'm not sure 6 separate holes is reasonable if upon digging out 3 or 4 randomly selected spots, they're all 300mm or greater, it might be reasonable to conclude the contractor has complied with the spec. obviously if 1 is under 300mm, then you could insist on further holes.

Thanks for that detailed reply.

Bare in mind this is for a domestic road. The paperwork was a quote detailing the various specifications for sub base, drain loadings, kerbstones, extent of compaction etc, but is all in writing. I have photographic evidence of the job throughout and the sub base has not been compacted yet with vibrating roller so now is a good time to excavate the areas of dispute and take photographs with a steel ruler showing depths.

There are plenty of other areas that he has messed up like cutting through the telephone cable, internet cable and main gas pipe etc, etc. etc.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Thanks for that detailed reply.

Bare in mind this is for a domestic road. The paperwork was a quote detailing the various specifications for sub base, drain loadings, kerbstones, extent of compaction etc, but is all in writing. I have photographic evidence of the job throughout and the sub base has not been compacted yet with vibrating roller so now is a good time to excavate the areas of dispute and take photographs with a steel ruler showing depths.

There are plenty of other areas that he has messed up like cutting through the telephone cable, internet cable and main gas pipe etc, etc. etc.

Why are you smiling Mr O’Reilly ?

 

[BN9 BHA]

https://youtu.be/MMx1tx2xov8

Anyone else thinking the same?
Hopefully your “builders” don’t live in caravans.

 

[Jesus Gul]

Were they anywhere near the M23 northbound this morning?

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

I have a builder relaying the road to the three properties in our close. There is a fair amount of traffic, so the sub base was well specified to a depth of 300mm. By shifting the type 1 MOT around with his digger the builder has tried to disguise the fact he is skimping on the base. I am insisting on his showing me the depth of the sub base in at least 6 places of my choosing, but am not optimistic the end result will meet the original spec in the quote.

I cant delay the job, as none of us can get cars in or out at present. The builder insists he has been in the game 30 years and he is confident there will be no future problems. I even have a 5 year guarantee for what that's worth with any builder.

Here is my question to be addressed when the drive is fully finished "If the builder has failed to install the sub base to the correct spec is it OK to hold back 10-20% of the bill until sufficient time has past to support his claims."

Interesting that you should post this now, as l have what may prove to be a not dissimilar problem with a patio that l have had laid by my local builder last week.

I was concerned because the builder has found it very difficult to source cement, there is a nationwide shortage at the moment, and in my builders own words, many builders merchants are rationing it at the moment, and l'm worried that he hasn't used enough cement in the mix when laying the paving slabs. One paving slab had already become unstuck and l had to make him re-lay it.

I did manage to negotiate a £200 discount if l paid in cash, no questions asked, but only time will tell as to how the job has worked out l guess.

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

Why are you smiling Mr O’Reilly ?

Sybil at her best!

 

[METALMICKY]

It occurs to me that an awful lot of tradesmen have not covered themselves in glory during the pandemic. Lots of people not spending money on holidays so spending it on home improvement meaning a glut of work for the trades. Sadly that seems they can pick and choose, do shoddy jobs, not turn up or not even bother to quote if it's a job they don't fancy. I've been given the run around by a numerous plumbers in Eastbourne area and as posted on here had to push a landscaper pm do a proper job. Thankfully I did come up trumps with an electrician and a double glazing firm who were both great.

 

[BN9 BHA]

Why are you smiling Mr O’Reilly ?