Should Tube leaders go to prison?

[Not Andy Naylor]

If you're earning £50,000 a year, you are NOT working class.

Interesting. So although working, you're not working class.

Where is the boundary, then? £30,000? National average?

If you earn £50,000 a year but then lose your job, do you go from middle class to working class? But of course then you're not working at all. So what are you? (A benefits scrounger according to the Daily Mail, of course, but class- wise? Classless?)

 

[yxee]

Ludicrous post.

We could save a few minutes if you just explained your disagreement without me having to ask every time.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Haven't you guys got work to do?

Or is it simply a FACT that you can take an hour off to debate stuff on NSC whenever you fancy?

Unlike train drivers.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

Haven't you guys got work to do?

Or is it simply a FACT that you can take an hour off to debate stuff on NSC whenever you fancy?

Unlike train drivers.

Good point. There's no 3G underground. There's a campaign I would support

 

[beorhthelm]

Since when has earnings dictated your class ?

since it always was. the lower and working class were those on low pay, with low education, low to no assets or opportunity to change their lot. at £50k you arent low paid, education is broadly the same for all and you'll have plenty of cash to invest and build assets. if you want a more Marxist view on working class then most everyone is in working class, though anyone with shares (or say a pension fund) would be considered part of the bourgeoisie. that people earning such money want to portray themselves as working class, when many in "middle class" managerial roles might earn half as much, is evidence that we are in a classless society. the definitions are meaningless today.

 

[beorhthelm]

Interesting. So although working, you're not working class.

accountants, solicitors, journalists, architects, stockbrokers, CEOs, and managers in every department at every level all work. are they working class too?

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

accountants, solicitors, journalists, architects, stockbrokers, CEOs, and managers in every department at every level all work. are they working class too?

As someone on that list, I'd still call myself working class (if I believed in such distinctions) because my parents were a moulder and a shop worker.

 

[Gwylan]

Does anyone know if this £50k a year is an accurate figure? I keep seeing it quoted in the Tory press but is that really the average wage for a Tube driver or what could be earned if he/she did a lot of overtime?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Okay, but on that salary they'll not be living in a council house, give it one generation and they'll be middle class for sure.

If they wanted to live in many parts of London on that salary they'd need a council house for certain.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Haven't you guys got work to do?

Or is it simply a FACT that you can take an hour off to debate stuff on NSC whenever you fancy?

Unlike train drivers.

I am driving a train...look mum no hands!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Good point. There's no 3G underground. There's a campaign I would support

Totally agree. 4G minimum, preferably free wifi.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Which equates to just over a grand bribe once tax and NI is taken out and a measly £10 a week as a pay rise. I note YOU didn't comment on what YOU would do if your employer suddenly forced you to do a mixture of nights and days.

As I mentioned on another thread, as one of the great self-employed I frequently had to work through the night at instant notice for not one dime extra. It was called trying very hard not to let your customers down. It seemed to work because my customers liked me, I got plenty of jobs and my modest business flourished.

I wouldn't expect big company employees, even ones earning 50k a year, to work unsocial hours for no extra money at all but I do wonder about the mindset of people working the country's utilities and public services. In a previous life I worked - for 16 years - for a huge service sector organisation. The waste of other people's money and the devil-take-the-hindmost spirit of so many people in this supposed 'public service' appalled me. The management treated the staff like children and the staff behaved like 12-year-olds (I'm not sure which came first; it was probably a dead-heat). I left when offered promotion to London - among other good reasons the amount I was earning for the amount I was achieving made me uneasy. I worked 50+ hour weeks and rarely took full holiday. Most of my colleagues worked 20 hours less, took all their holiday and plenty more besides. And when they got a 55 they sashayed off into the sunlit uplands, generously fuelled by the taxpayer.

I don't criticise them, just as I don't criticise the tube drivers for taking their money. But I do which they'd stop wingeing, striking and generally feeling sorry for themselves. Many, not all, of them are living in a parallel universe.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Okay, but on that salary they'll not be living in a council house, give it one generation and they'll be middle class for sure.

So you're only working class if you live in a council house ? Bizarre.

 

[beorhthelm]

Does anyone know if this £50k a year is an accurate figure? I keep seeing it quoted in the Tory press but is that really the average wage for a Tube driver or what could be earned if he/she did a lot of overtime?

the starting salary is £49,673

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

accountants, solicitors, journalists, architects, stockbrokers, CEOs, and managers in every department at every level all work. are they working class too?

Phew, I've escaped the cull. Power to the People.
#workingclass

 

[Westdene Seagull]

since it always was. the lower and working class were those on low pay, with low education, low to no assets or opportunity to change their lot. at £50k you arent low paid, education is broadly the same for all and you'll have plenty of cash to invest and build assets. if you want a more Marxist view on working class then most everyone is in working class, though anyone with shares (or say a pension fund) would be considered part of the bourgeoisie. that people earning such money want to portray themselves as working class, when many in "middle class" managerial roles might earn half as much, is evidence that we are in a classless society. the definitions are meaningless today.

I'm pretty sure the roofer that lives next door to me would claim he's working class yet he earns considerably over £50k.

 

[Nibble]

We could save a few minutes if you just explained your disagreement without me having to ask every time.

The reasons it is ludicrous are manifold but the glaringly ludicrous aspect is the "if you don't like it QUIT" comment. Why should they? They worked their way into their job and they care about it so why on earth should they leave because their bosses are trying to blackmail them into longer hours for no real term pay rise and a huge disruption to their working and family life?
It devalues their contribution to the workforce and makes a total mockery of the working man. Oh, just QUIT. Yeah y'know just quit and go and get one of those other milions of jobs suitable for your skill set that pay 50k a year, I mean there must be other jobs out there? I bet they are really easy to get too but people just don't try do they!

You might have a shitty job that people can just walk in and out of but that's not the case for everyone, some care about their work.

That's why your post is at best LUDICROUS, IGNORANT and INSULTING.

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm pretty sure the roofer that lives next door to me would claim he's working class yet he earns considerably over £50k.

he probably does. however if he's self employed and earning that sort of money, he certainly isnt working class in the Marxist mold, as he controls the means of production (himself!).

 

[Steve.S]

So you don't think they could have postponed the strike while they considered this? I don't buy that. I do have sympathy with the night shifts issue - I really do. But surely that should form part of negotiations, rather than walking out. That's why I have no sympathy right now.

I don't work in London by the way, so this doesn't affect me. I just see this as typical union politics

No I don't think they should have postponed the strike, it was not an offer for them to think about. They were told the offer was on condition that they accepted it by 6:30 that evening. It was not postpone the strike and think about it, it was an ultimatum take it or its gone. Unions have to consult with their members and let them decide, not decide for them. Let's see if that is still an offer after today

 

[Chicken Run]

"The unions rejected a "final" pay offer from LU which included a 2% rise this year and £2,000 for drivers on the weekend night Tube service. The typical salary for a Tube driver is £50,000 a year, the RMT said, but the unions maintain the new plans would be disruptive to their members' lives. They claim some employees are concerned they will have to work more overnight shifts"

£50k for driving a train isn't enough! They're getting an above inflation pay rise & a payment of £2,000. And basically they're concerned they might have to work extra overnight shifts. Absolute joke.

You know what, if I don't like my job I get another one. Why don't they go & get a new job if they don't like this one. Ah that's right, they can't because they don't have any other skills.

50k a year, how many hours do they do per week, I heard just under 38? Nice work if you can get it!