Should the voting age be raised?

[Ron Manager]

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[GT49er]

I have quite a lot of evidence actually (Brexit voting, discussions with older generations, word of mouth, voting patterns at this election...). Most of it is highlighted in the rest of the post, which you clearly failed to read. Then again maybe you're just not paying attention to the world around you.

You have evidence of 'some', no proof of 'most'. Most is entirely tour own opinion (guess) as to what you think it should be. As is your incorrect assumption (it seems to be a habit of yours, thinking you know what other people are thinking) that I didn't read all of your post. I did. And don't come out with another of your assumptions, that I can't have understood it. I did. And still didn't agree with it.
And come to think of it, I've just spotted another of your assumptions.........that people who don't agree with you are not paying attention to the world around them. Wrong on so many counts...............................

 

[drew]

You can't get a degree in experience. All other things being equal a 70 year old will have a far greater wisdom than a 17 year old. Every day you experience something new. Older people just know more - simple! We also learned the dicipline and risks required for good/bad judgement.

Just for the record the old were young once - except 50 years ago we were the first and the greatest youth cult the world has ever known - an explosion of energy emitting from the U.K. that took the whole world by storm - what were the words you used? Creative, inspired, aspirational, positive, outward looking. Yep! - You're describing my generation brilliantly.

By the way, luckily, you have no experience or war and that's good. If however, young people wish to be greater informed of the horrors of total conflict, I would highly recommend the amazing and highly acclaimed 'The World at War' Thames TV produced series. You may have to search a little to access it as I doubt you'll find it on Facebook or Twitter - it's a serious piece of education.

What a ridiculous post, an embarrassment to your generation. I don't know how old you are but as you refer to experience of global warfare you'd have to be over 80. Even then, your experience is likely to be limited to what you saw on Pathe News!! If you were part of the youth of the swinging sixties then you are younger than that. Kids of today see far worse on the internet and tv. 9/11, 7/7, Westminster Bridge, Manchester and London Bridge are all very recent in the grand scheme of things. (although I agree that World at War is a must for every generation).

A lot of the older generation have never stepped foot of this island and have no experience of foreign travel. There are, of course plenty that have.

At the end of the day, every generation has those in it with varying levels of 'experience' and to claim your generation has the best experience just because of age is laughable.

 

[Is it PotG?]

From a British veteran: (NOT me I hasten to add)

I never went to university, I didn't even go to college as for 6th form that was the last place on my mind when I left school.
If I'd have played my cards right I'd have been on some top money now, I had everything lined up for an apprenticeship in engineering, I originally had a job at the local pit with my dad but he refused said I was a long time dead, didn't know what it meant at the time, being young and stupid I knew best the prospect of sitting in an office wasn't what I wanted and I had different plans.
I've learned the hard way, my mind was never corrupted by left leaning teaching, I left school at the right time and I watched Britains political struggle through the miners strike, the selling off of our nationalised industries, I didn't need a year out to find myself or to understand the plight third world nations have, I've been in situations which at the time seemed the right thing, but being older and wiser I'm not so sure, and for the last 30+ years Ive worked my way through life.
I've watched the left grow, moving from the Che Guevara Marxism movement to the Communist and then Socialist moments, taking in along the way CND, Animal Liberation, Anti Abortion, Gay Rights and Feminism. They have based their lives on minimalistic pleasures, promoting the vegan way of life and trying to recreate the flower power era of Woodstock, justify their life by experiencing cultural enrichment and trying to eradicate their own, but in truth they have no concept of reality, they protest against war but cry out at humanitarian disasters that require military intervention, they are obsessed with taking without giving a whole society built in greed enjoying that which others have earned.
This country has lost its values through the spread of an idyllic existence that's created in the mind of the over educated and delusional.

Just a thought, a dawn thought

 

[Is it PotG?]

...

 

[drew]

From a British veteran: (NOT me I hasten to add)

I never went to university, I didn't even go to college as for 6th form that was the last place on my mind when I left school.
If I'd have played my cards right I'd have been on some top money now, I had everything lined up for an apprenticeship in engineering, I originally had a job at the local pit with my dad but he refused said I was a long time dead, didn't know what it meant at the time, being young and stupid I knew best the prospect of sitting in an office wasn't what I wanted and I had different plans.
I've learned the hard way, my mind was never corrupted by left leaning teaching, I left school at the right time and I watched Britains political struggle through the miners strike, the selling off of our nationalised industries, I didn't need a year out to find myself or to understand the plight third world nations have, I've been in situations which at the time seemed the right thing, but being older and wiser I'm not so sure, and for the last 30+ years Ive worked my way through life.
I've watched the left grow, moving from the Che Guevara Marxism movement to the Communist and then Socialist moments, taking in along the way CND, Animal Liberation, Anti Abortion, Gay Rights and Feminism. They have based their lives on minimalistic pleasures, promoting the vegan way of life and trying to recreate the flower power era of Woodstock, justify their life by experiencing cultural enrichment and trying to eradicate their own, but in truth they have no concept of reality, they protest against war but cry out at humanitarian disasters that require military intervention, they are obsessed with taking without giving a whole society built in greed enjoying that which others have earned.
This country has lost its values through the spread of an idyllic existence that's created in the mind of the over educated and delusional.

Just a thought, a dawn thought

For service in the armed forces gratitude, but all the other comments mean nothing and are pretty blinkered. (almost the proverbial DM article).

 

[DataPoint]

Pile of patronising shit, wisdom is about more than just being alive, in fact the xenophobia that is more prevalent among the old is startlingly ignorant.

'we were the first and the greatest youth cult the world has ever known'

Many reasons for this and one of them was a post rationing massive increase of disposable income amongst the young. So your just pointing out how easy you had it and the opportunities you had that youngsters today don't have.

Experience of war? A 70 year old wasn't alive in the war and has no more experience of it than a youngster today apart from reading Battle and Victory comics and commando book's.



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Hi Hitchin! When I was a kid many years ago, I played football for my Letchworth school against a Hitchin school - can't remember the score though. Spent 4 years in the beautiful Garden City - loved the Lido, cinema. Cycled for miles in the area including the small town of Stevenage where I went over the handle bars 'cause I didn't listen to people who told me not to brake hard with the front wheel. Never made that mistake again! Oh! yes - Stevenage - not so small now is it? Hi tech, modern, dynamic would some call it?

Often stood in the fields watching the traffic trundle so, so slowly up The Great North Road (now the A1(M)). What an improvement. Visited Letchworth and my school last year still amazing.

Of course, I'm no expert of the area - but I do have more information stored in my database than someone who has no experience of the area - which is the point I was making - or would you deny that?

I could of course give thousands and thousands of other experiences which I can draw upon for my reasoning. In 50 years time, young people will be able to do the same.

You do have opportunities - otherwise it's a total waste of money educating you so expensively. Perhaps it may be an idea for some to seriously sit down and analyse the attitudes and attributes required to have a desperate employer dribbling with excitement as they walk into the interview room?


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[BrianWade4]

Yes
I wasn't capable of intelligent thoughts until my mid-20s

 

[cheshunt seagull]

From a British veteran: (NOT me I hasten to add)

I never went to university, I didn't even go to college as for 6th form that was the last place on my mind when I left school.
If I'd have played my cards right I'd have been on some top money now, I had everything lined up for an apprenticeship in engineering, I originally had a job at the local pit with my dad but he refused said I was a long time dead, didn't know what it meant at the time, being young and stupid I knew best the prospect of sitting in an office wasn't what I wanted and I had different plans.
I've learned the hard way, my mind was never corrupted by left leaning teaching, I left school at the right time and I watched Britains political struggle through the miners strike, the selling off of our nationalised industries, I didn't need a year out to find myself or to understand the plight third world nations have, I've been in situations which at the time seemed the right thing, but being older and wiser I'm not so sure, and for the last 30+ years Ive worked my way through life.
I've watched the left grow, moving from the Che Guevara Marxism movement to the Communist and then Socialist moments, taking in along the way CND, Animal Liberation, Anti Abortion, Gay Rights and Feminism. They have based their lives on minimalistic pleasures, promoting the vegan way of life and trying to recreate the flower power era of Woodstock, justify their life by experiencing cultural enrichment and trying to eradicate their own, but in truth they have no concept of reality, they protest against war but cry out at humanitarian disasters that require military intervention, they are obsessed with taking without giving a whole society built in greed enjoying that which others have earned.
This country has lost its values through the spread of an idyllic existence that's created in the mind of the over educated and delusional.

Just a thought, a dawn thought

Bizarre; works marginally better if read in the style of Forrest Gump.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

It takes a while in life to work out our system, who it benefits and the agenda in place. This eventually comes with experience in the workplace, meeting more and more people, travel and reading/study. It is not the ownership of the more mature to have greater understanding, there are many perceptive youngsters around. As they say in life...." there is no fool like an old fool "
As long as people understand the controls that are in place in public life and the vested interest that goes with that. That politicians can change very little, make grandiose statements and only tinker around the edges, then fine. It is when the delusional and the idealistic try to brainwash, then we have problems.
The class system has always controlled the upper echelons of our political ruling class. We are naturally conservative as a country and the voting system guarantees that we mainly have a Tory government with a few years of Labour mixed in, for balance. It will never change. Once we have voted, the majority of us desert our responsibility to judge our elected representatives. We let them get on with it, wasting millions and showing the sort of inefficiency, which in business would result in disaster.. We are passive by nature and have become increasingly self-centred, living in micro-bubbles rather than trying to see the bigger picture.
Age is irrelevant. As long as you understand the system and how it is controlled and how it limits, then you vote with your eyes open and in the knowledge that most of the time, very little changes. By all means have your dreams but remember that we are not living in a dreamworld. Our system is designed to benefit the advantaged minority. It has always been that way and will remain that way.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

I don't like to hide from debates but i have to get on there are just far to many of you lefties on here.

Friends.

If the yoof vote had gone to the Tories, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
After the referendum, some remoaners accused the leavers of being thick, racist , or just northern,they were roundly abused for being bad losers etc, what makes you any different. I vote Labour, cos I don't earn anything like enough to vote Tory, and I haven't inherited money, and, I'm not naive enough to think the Conservatives have people like me's best interests at heart.

This is not about winning and losing this is about bribery, which Corbyn will NOT be able to stick to unless he leaves the cupboard bare for decades.
By the way the Tories did actually WIN.

Actually I suspect most would agree with DaveinSouthampton. It's comical to blame this effective defeat for the Tories on the fact that the young turned out to vote. There are people of all ages who are too dumb to vote but they still get the chance. People who believe every thing that Paul Dacre publishes, those that change their mind on the basis of a Sun headline, etc etc.

What other qualifying criteria should there be? Have to own a house, pass a basic intelligence test, earn over a certain amount.

Get over it. May and her close cronies screwed up. Should never have called an election but I suspect they were concerned about the investigations into campaign funding and that that might erode the slim majority they had. As it turned out only one MP has been charged!

I have not read a paper for decades, it comes down to business experience and commonsense.

Great plan! Change the boundaries to aid the Tories in the next general election (confirmed already), ban young people from voting until you have a chance to fill their heads with greed and selfishness and knock all ideology out of them, then see what's left to stifle.

Not a bad plan. Could just work you know. I hear Theresa is looking for a new manifesto writer and campaign team. Worth applying?

Thanks i will apply NOW.

There were many older people gullible enough to vote Labour. Perhaps a ban on voting for anyone but the conservatives would save people from themselves.



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Probably a few trade union lead sheep, maybe

So the issue is that they didn't vote Tory.

I know a few university students and they are a lot smarter than you think they are. I also know a lot of people who vomit tabloid headlines.

You can have a good debate with students. Not so easy with tabloid slaves.

I have not read a paper for decades, it comes down to business experience and commonsense, i have NEVER said that the young are not intelligent, they just have no life experience, it's not there thought.

When i was 18 i voted, i was a clueless sheep just like most 18 year old's.

And which kind of life experiences do you feel qualifies you to vote? Have you gained those experiences at the age of 21? Or 40? If you're born into a wealthy family does that qualify you more than if you suffer in poverty or less? Or parental neglect? Are you better qualified if you've lost your job? Or run a corner shop? Or an only child? Or have a degree? Or be employed by a large corporation? Or run a large corporation? Or employed as a social worker? Or road sweeper? Or never had a job? Or too ill to work? Or very intelligent? Or have a parent in prison? What about if you've never had any of those experiences?




And what about those people who voted for the LibDems? How many of them remember when the Liberals were last in power. Or what about the Greens? Or ukip? If you can't remember when they were in power but you voted for them, should you have been allowed? Or should you only be able to vote for a party if you can remember when they were last in power?



You've fallen into the trap of judging hundreds of thousands of young people by your own experience. I understand that our 2-horse-race political system and associated media sideshows encourages simplistic, polarised binary responses but c'mon, think a bit fella. Hundreds of thousands of young people aren't necessarily that gullible.

Playing your game, how about looking on the other side of your coin. Old people who don't have long to live were gullible and voted the way they did because someone promised them the earth and now they've saddled our future with the fruits of their naivety.



This comes across exactly as an attack at the youth as your reaction to the result of the vote.

You've fallen into the trap of assuming that age provides enlightenment. Individuals are primarily motivated by basic physiological needs (breathe, eat, excrete, sleep, sex) and security needs( body, employment, family, health, property). Some people, whatever their life experiences, make choices based solely on those motivations. Others are have a more sophisticated psychology, developing relationship and acquiring self esteem, respecting and caring for others, lacking prejudice and having refined sense of morality. Those more refined attributes ameliorate an individual's base desires and provide a more altruistic outlook on life. The extent of one's self awareness is not a gift of age, it is a product of aeons of human development. Many have it in their teens, many never achieve it.



From your perspective.

Sorry i have a short time to reply, so i just going to say read some of my other replies please, hopefully you will find my stance and reasons within.

What an embarrassing thread


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Thanks.

What a load of bollocks! The only gullible ones are you old fools that have been reading shite newspapers for decades lapping up all their drivel

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I have not read a newspaper for decades, it comes down to business experience and commonsense.

I've read some patronising bollox on NSC over the years but this is Premier League drivel.

You seem a touch sensitive, i hope your OK.

Have you seen some of the 30 something's walking the streets of Brighton? Have you seen the 50 year olds with their life experience and knowledge of previous governments queuing up to get into Wetherspoons in George Street at 8am?

Thank God 18 year olds can have a say in who runs the country

(I'm 49 BTW)

By the way i works both way 18 year old's have only just started their lives and by being what they may feel proactive will hurt them in just a few years if Corbyn ever got his hands on the UK's cash. Bigger picture and all that.

Exploited?? Seriously?
They appealed to that demographic with their progressive policies.

7 years ago the Tories promised to get rid of the deficit in a single term. Now that estimate is maybe 2025.
It's amazing to me that anyone votes for them still.

IMO, way too many 45-60 year olds vote Conservative based on the Thatcher government of the 80s
The assumption being once we get through these hard times we're going to be better off..

There is no evidence to support this view.. Apart from "life experience" from 30 years ago..

When you left in a deep deep deep hole by the previous government it takes a lot of filling in. Thank god we have given Corbyn a spade to start the digging all over again.

What a stupid post. Age is irrelevant. There are lots of people much older who are clueless about politics. Should they not be allowed to vote too.

If anything the minimum age should be reduced to 16.

Now there is a stupid post, at 16 years old most kids don't have their own mind, they are still apprentices in life and will go on to make many mistakes in choice over the next 5-10 years.
I am all for kids making mistakes to learn but when it effects all the other hard work generation by their Uni pals misjudgement, it's just wrong.

In that case, they should take your vote away - you're old, its not your future.

Sounds harsh...

Hang on pal i could still have another 40+ years on this planet, the over 50's are still very much alive, so yes it is still MY FUTURE also.

Of course they don't have life experience, but they're old enough to fight and die for a country so they deserve the right to vote. 16 year olds on the other hand, no.

That's another subject i would not have a 18 year old fight for the country.

The Righties getting desperate now, don't vote how they want then BAR them from voting. Right wing democracy at it's best

Keep on STRIKING Ernest your doing a fine job.





LOL LOL LOL

There was a pensioner on TV the other day who was asked who she was voting for and she said Theresa May. Asked why she replied. ''I don't know but she always dresses nice''.

Now there's ''gullible'' for you.[/QUOTE]

What was she thinking, i voted for her for her shoes and slut like looks.

What are your views on youngsters eligible to register to vote but who miss the deadline? I guess you think they should get a free shir.... I mean be able to vote?

Never one to duck a question.

Different scenario, the shirt was all about customer care and retention to a long term loyal fan, basics really.
There can be no movement within a voting system it has to be rigid.
Nice try though.

Sad though it may sound, I have not been on the whacky and have never in my 63 years touched the stuff.

Alcohol, yes. Drugs, no.

That's good to know.

What a complete & utter disgrace you are for suggesting such a thing. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Can't we just ban all Londoners & Northerners from voting? Harsh but fair!!

Now there's a thought.

If is raised to 21, perhaps it needs to end at 75.

Neither will happen, a reduction to 16 would be far more progressive and far more likely

I agree with your first line, it's a deal.

Funny how lefties always want to lower the age knowing they can offer the world but then expect tory voters to pay for it.

Don't get them started.

Definitely, age should be raised to 21. Too many daft idealistic students voting for Jeremy ' Marxist ' Corbyn.

The working class think he's like them, trust me he isn't. He won't help anyone, other than drag our country back 60 years and ruin our economy.

Complete and utter idiot is as polite a comment I can make.

Don't get them started AGAIN.

This is the nub of it. JC played a blinder, as you are entitled to do when you are unlikley to have to face the consequences of what you say. It is actually a bit Trump like, and we can all see the number of promises Trump made that in practice he can deliver...

If I was a student or recently graduated I would have voted JC. Why not? Take the money and run. Good job, and blow the consequences that I will have to pay for it sometime down the line. Bit of a bugger for those who have assiduously avoided drinking to excess, taken a part-time job, and lived in a shithole to prevent their debt climbing higher. But heyho, I had a great time not worrying about any of that and now good old JC is writing mine off big time.

You can't get a degree in experience. All other things being equal a 70 year old will have a far greater wisdom than a 17 year old. Every day you experience something new. Older people just know more - simple! We also learned the dicipline and risks required for good/bad judgement.

Just for the record the old were young once - except 50 years ago we were the first and the greatest youth cult the world has ever known - an explosion of energy emitting from the U.K. that took the whole world by storm - what were the words you used? Creative, inspired, aspirational, positive, outward looking. Yep! - You're describing my generation brilliantly.

By the way, luckily, you have no experience or war and that's good. If however, young people wish to be greater informed of the horrors of total conflict, I would highly recommend the amazing and highly acclaimed 'The World at War' Thames TV produced series. You may have to search a little to access it as I doubt you'll find it on Facebook or Twitter - it's a serious piece of education.

Too true.

I was told to respect our elders i don't see a lot of that goes on nowadays, who knows one day we may get that culture back.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Yes
I wasn't capable of intelligent thoughts until my mid-20s

You had a few munters didn't you


Didn't we all Under 20 some BIG mistakes were made, this just adds to the theory!!

 

[lawros left foot]

This is not about winning and losing this is about bribery, which Corbyn will NOT be able to stick to unless he leaves the cupboard bare for decades.
By the way the Tories did actually WIN.



I said nothing about winning, the Tories won , no argument from me, although it wasn't quite the win they imagined it would be, thank goodness, and name me a Government who hasn't bribed their core vote, well, apart from the Cons this time, and see how that's turned out.

 

[lawros left foot]

You can't get a degree in experience. All other things being equal a 70 year old will have a far greater wisdom than a 17 year old. Every day you experience something new. Older people just know more - simple! We also learned the dicipline and risks required for good/bad judgement.

Just for the record the old were young once - except 50 years ago we were the first and the greatest youth cult the world has ever known - an explosion of energy emitting from the U.K. that took the whole world by storm - what were the words you used? Creative, inspired, aspirational, positive, outward looking. Yep! - You're describing my generation brilliantly.

By the way, luckily, you have no experience or war and that's good. If however, young people wish to be greater informed of the horrors of total conflict, I would highly recommend the amazing and highly acclaimed 'The World at War' Thames TV produced series. You may have to search a little to access it as I doubt you'll find it on Facebook or Twitter - it's a serious piece of education.

Did The Gulf war , the Invasion of Iraq, and Afghan war pas you by? Quite insulting to say the young have no experience of war, when so many have been killed or injured, I didn't see many 70 year old on the casualty lists, and there are very few WW2 veterans left now, who would have lived through total war. I have experienced war, it's not a pleasant experience, it didn't make me any wiser, it just made me never to want to do it again, and hope my children never have to fight for their country.

 

[Diego Napier]

You can't get a degree in experience. All other things being equal a 70 year old will have a far greater wisdom than a 17 year old. Every day you experience something new. Older people just know more - simple! We also learned the dicipline and risks required for good/bad judgement.

But all things aren't equal, that's exactly the point! Some people learn from experience, some people don't, some people are born with a great deal more common sense and wisdom than others acquire in their entire lifetime. Old people don't know more, biologically they've forgotten more, they simply remember what reinforces their beliefs. I often hear old people say that wisdom is a product of age; well, perhaps that reflects the low point on the wisdom/common sense scale from which they started.

Wisdom and common sense are largely irrelevant when it comes to politics. Your politics, like religion, is a belief system that has no basis in reality, it reflects your personality, your desires and your view about society.

 

[Ernest]

tl:dr

 

[peterward]

That old chestnut! You need to factor in many things such as the fact that the economy has grown and companies profits have increased since 2008. Why should the rate that companies pay tax be less than what individuals have to pay? Personally think there should be a graduated tax system for companies the same as individuals. For example, you could have 20% for the first million profit and then above that a higher rate, We have the lowest corporation tax rate of all the G7. If we increased it to 25% it would still be lower than most.

You answered your own rhetorical question. Youre right, the economy has grown considerably and one of the reasons why and a reason why unemployment is at historical lows is that companies pay less tax, that means more staff, less unemployment benefits, it means more businesses which means increasing economic output, investment by business, which in turn leads to increased VAT receipts. There is no question that if every business was charged 26p next week instead of 19p this week, then next week that would earn more money than this week, but it is also wrong to believe that the effects very quickly would not be a retraction in the economy, with less growth and less spending/less secondary VAT, less new business and certainly less foreign business which in turn effects growth, employment and tax receipts. You cannot take a 7p in the £ loss of profitability/tax hike in isolation. It has far reaching effects to business profitability which greatly affects the overall economy.

You cant set tax rates based on other countries, only on what will bring the best balance of growth and tax receipts in the UK

The reason why 19p brings in more now than 26p is because you are right, the economy has grown, but it will retract at 26p and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see if it retracts to similar levels of a few years ago it will have the same result.

If economic output is £200 and tax is 26p thats £52 to the treasury, if its dropped in phases to 19p and the consequence is growth in output to £300 that's now £57.... but if we put it to 26p with output of £300 that would mean £78 yes tomorrow it would, but very soon output will again be £200 and youll be back to £52. That in simplistic terms is the reality, decreasing taxes increases growth, increasing taxes decreases growth. Thats the same the world over and less spending equals less VAT, Hollande made the same mistake as do all socialists.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

tl:dr

Tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo shoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooort didddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddn't reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead.

 

[Badger Boy]

The voting age should be 16.

 

[Ernest]

The voting age should be 16.

That would rule out Mouldy Boots out for another 5 years