[News] School strikes

[Berty23]

I doesn't show they've had a pay cut at all, what it purports to show is that prices are increasing faster than wages.

Everyone would like their wages to increase higher than prices, or at the very least in line with them.

Isn’t it the definition of a real terms pay cut?

If inflation didn’t exist then sure not getting a pay rise is not a problem. But when inflation exists and at the moment is high then it is effectively a pay cut. I don’t think anyone sensible is saying the actual take home pay has decreased. Occurrences of that happening anywhere are very rare. “We hired you on x but are reducing to y” - how often does that happen when we are not in global pandemic?

So this is obviously about real terms pay cut which is precisely what that graph shows. Taking an extreme example that if inflation was at 1000% and pay didn’t increase then are you arguing that this isn’t a real pay cut because they still take home the same amount of money even though it is worth far far less.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood your point.

 

[Curious Orange]

Taking an extreme example that if inflation was at 1000% and pay didn’t increase then are you arguing that this isn’t a real pay cut because they still take home the same amount of money even though it is worth far far less.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood your point.

You haven't misunderstood, and your example is correct.

I'll admit I have a problem with the expression "real terms" as it is somewhat loaded, in my opinion, to suggest something is simple that doesn't correspond to the rather more complicated reality. Not all prices go up, not all prices go up at the same rate, some prices go down. Wages aren't linked to prices, because, well, which prices do you link them to, and who decides that? What happens if there is a direct link?

 

[jonny.rainbow]

Local Primary school to me had a solitary guy outside waving a little flag.
School was fully open, staff car park full.
Both secondary schools mini GB’s attend closed to all but years 10 and 11. No online lessons provided.

Respect to him for standing up for his principles.
The school wouldn’t be fully open if even one person takes strike action.
Sadly, headteachers have strong-armed a lot of teachers into going against a democratic vote for industrial action by following the DFE’s edict to find out which staff were striking in advance of the day. This is at odds with strike law and, needless to say, something this month’s education secretary Gillian Keegan was unaware of.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

I doesn't show they've had a pay cut at all, what it purports to show is that prices are increasing faster than wages.

Everyone would like their wages to increase higher than prices, or at the very least in line with them.

This is why there is a recruitment and retention crisis in education. Private sector jobs become more and more appealing to graduates and experienced teachers each year.

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

 

[Berty23]

You haven't misunderstood, and your example is correct.

I'll admit I have a problem with the expression "real terms" as it is somewhat loaded, in my opinion, to suggest something is simple that doesn't correspond to the rather more complicated reality. Not all prices go up, not all prices go up at the same rate, some prices go down. Wages aren't linked to prices, because, well, which prices do you link them to, and who decides that? What happens if there is a direct link?

There are two types of inflation measures that pull together the basket of measures. RPI and CPI. Do you think that constant pay “rises”under these are okay? If so, do you think that pensions should stop being linked to inflation?

I hear the argument “pensioners have done their time” so deserve it. I can’t compute why people no longer working deserve a fair rise while those working don’t. Only for those who stop working due to age suddenly become entitled to a proper rise every year because they suddenly deserve it now they are not working.

There is a whole debate about the triple lock. Why are those people so protected while workers are not? Maybe those with property should cut their cloth accordingly and downsize houses rather than take handouts from the state? I am not saying this is my view but why do some deserve handouts and others not?

Means testing things always appears to be for younger people. Who do people think pay for the pensioners to live off the state?

 

[Normal Rob]

 

[Curious Orange]

There are two types of inflation measures that pull together the basket of measures. RPI and CPI. Do you think that constant pay “rises”under these are okay? If so, do you think that pensions should stop being linked to inflation?

I'm not arguing against increasing a persons income at all, and having worked in the annuity sector many years ago I certainly don't have a problem with RPI and CPI being used in pensions as that is what actuaries are employed to work out how to cost!

The only argument I am making is that not receiving an increase in pay is not actually a pay cut. It can, and in times like these does, have an affect on purchase power, but then so does having an above inflation pay rise.

I am certainly not arguing against teachers having a pay rise. That should be considered within the context of the overall education budget, and the conversation about whether that budget is appropriate and how it is funded.

 

[jessiejames]

Usual question to anyone saying teachers don’t deserve more pay.

1. Should they work voluntarily?
If no
2. What do you think is the fair rate of pay when you consider can’t recruit enough at current pay?
3. Do you think it is fair that teachers have seen a substantial real terms pay cut over the last decade?
4. If you still don’t think they should strike for better wages then how low would their wages have to get before you supported them going on strike.

It is a graduate job so tens of thousands in debt that they will pay off for the rest of their working lives.

Is that the same as most employed people?

 

[Machiavelli]

View attachment 156521This is why there is a recruitment and retention crisis in education. Private sector jobs become more and more appealing to graduates and experienced teachers each year.

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

That's been road-tested for a good while now

 

[jessiejames]

I guess that renowned lefty rag the daily express pointing out school staff leave schools to earn more in supermarkets is all made up?

Which job is more skilled? Working with children with special educational needs or stacking shelves? How will losing staff from helping struggling children help the struggling children?

Schools risk losing teachers to higher-paid jobs in supermarkets | UK | News | Express.co.uk

SCHOOLS risk losing vital teaching assistants to higher-paid jobs in supermarkets as they struggle to keep up with the bills crisis, a report says.

www.express.co.uk

Because if you have empty shelves nobody eats.

 

[Machiavelli]

I'm not arguing against increasing a persons income at all, and having worked in the annuity sector many years ago I certainly don't have a problem with RPI and CPI being used in pensions as that is what actuaries are employed to work out how to cost!

The only argument I am making is that not receiving an increase in pay is not actually a pay cut. It can, and in times like these does, have an affect on purchase power, but then so does having an above inflation pay rise.

I am certainly not arguing against teachers having a pay rise. That should be considered within the context of the overall education budget, and the conversation about whether that budget is appropriate and how it is funded.

You're being very persistent and have divulged you have a working background in this area. Given that, I'm struggling to understand why you think a nominal pay 'rise' that is below inflation is anything other than a real-terms pay cut.
I'm not sure there's a way around this, but interested to hear your response.

 

[Comrade Sam]

My daughter's local Primary and Secondary School Teachers were with my family on the London demo today. It was awesome and a great day! Hopefully more unions will join the fight for better pay and to save our services.

 

[Curious Orange]

You're being very persistent and have divulged you have a working background in this area. Given that, I'm struggling to understand why you think a nominal pay 'rise' that is below inflation is anything other than a real-terms pay cut.
I'm not sure there's a way around this, but interested to hear your response.

Erm, because the "real terms" thing isn't what actually happens. An increase in pay is a increase in pay, it isn't ever actually a pay cut.

 

[Greenbag50]

Don't think this has been challenged.
This entirely misleading headline came from the Mail or the Express (can't remember which). It includes around 10 million pensioners and so is entirely meaningless.
It is information like this that has brought us Brexit and 13 years of tory rule.

Edit: I see it has, but it's a point worth making twice.

I never mentioned pensioners in my post.

 

[Greenbag50]

My daughter's local Primary and Secondary School Teachers were with my family on the London demo today. It was awesome and a great day! Hopefully more unions will join the fight for better pay and to save our services.

My wife took our 2 kids to pizza express for lunch and there were a few people with strike placards with kids lunching there as well. Obvs having a break from a hard day striking.
Pleased Pizza Express got more lunch traffic, but the kids should have been using their Squid cards instead.

 

[Machiavelli]

Erm, because the "real terms" thing isn't what actually happens. An increase in pay is a increase in pay, it isn't ever actually a pay cut.

Is what's informing your view:
-- a critical rejection of the notion of 'the real' or reality (which is a feature of many philosophical positions)
-- a rejection of the long-established distinction between 'real' and 'nominal' in economics
-- something else?
I'd also be grateful for a brief explanation.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Because if you have empty shelves nobody eats.

And if you have people who can't read or count the tins and packets you have empty shelves.

 

[Berty23]

Is that the same as most employed people?

Do most employed people get told it is a vocation so take whatever paid.

 

[vegster]

Mrs V has been a Primary school teacher for some 30 years in all, teaching whole class, specialist 1-1 reading interventions and at different times as a supply teacher. At her last post (4 years ago) as a whole class teacher she was earning £28k pa and was one of the higher earners in the school, a new head came in and had to make cuts due to the school budget being cut. Mrs V was effectively constructively dismissed due to the stress and anxiety caused by extra duties,observations and procedures imposed on her in order to get a NQT in and saving a few £s...

Remember that when Sunak or any of the other Tory ministers state they want a " High Skill/ High Wage Economy " they are lying. Their paymasters are investing huge amounts in the Tory party in order to get an economy that uses low wage drones in order to facilitate higher profits. they want a workforce educated to a level that means they are a net contributor to the economy but not educated enough to be able to see how they are being used.

 

[jessiejames]

One thing I do know - if I had a child in school and wanted to take them away on holiday during term time, but the school said "no", then following all these strikes, I'd tell them to DO one.

Demand from them £50. I have taken my daughter and son on holiday in term time due to it being cheaper,they then Decided to charge me £200 for taking my kids out school £50 for each child per parent.