Safe Standing at the AMEX: Yes or No?

[Munkfish]

What is safer, standing at a ground for 90 mins? or being packed onto a train from 15mins from brighton station the ground. often small kids being squashed by people clambering onto the train.

I know for sure id rather stand in the north stand for 90mins than stand on a moving train on the way to the amex.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Sign this then:

Safe Standing in the Premiership and Championship that follows the German Model - e-petitions

Signed! Unfortunately only 69 have done so.

 

[HovaGirl]

You never mentioned divisions in your post you said:

"Standing in football grounds in the UK was made illegal after the Hillsborough disaster of 1990."

As others have said it is not illegal to stand at football matches in the UK but if you do at particular grounds whose safety certificate does not allow it then that club could have their certificate revoked by the local council.

It was an error in my post not to specifically mention the top two divisions for which I apologise. But as we are talking of Brighton, I thought people would understand I was specifically referring to that.

 

[HovaGirl]

Signed! Unfortunately only 69 have done so.

70 now. Really popular campaign, isn't it? Still, people have got until the end of September to sign. Perhaps the link should be a sticky?

 

[Captain Sensible]

70 now. Really popular campaign, isn't it? Still, people have got until the end of September to sign. Perhaps the link should be a sticky?

Thing is, I think it's gone past the petition now. I remember there were quite a few that started last year. This one didn't take off. We've now got EDM's in the commons, a massive safe standing roadshow and supporters groups, alot of clubs have thrown their weight behind it.
It is popular, I can't see why it wouldn't be. People want to stand at football, and all over the world they do, except here. But that will change.

 

[drew]

You cannot take the decisions made by the police on that day out of the equation when asking that question. They along with Sheffield City Council and Sheffield Wednesday Football Club played a big part in that disaster.
Hillsborough happened due to extremely poor crowd control allied with poor ground design. Combine this with a council who shouldn't have passed the ground fit to stage football matches you had a recipe for disaster.
If you'd had seats in the Leppings Lane end paddock, padlocked fences pitch side and let the same amount of people in from the top of the stand downward into a fully seated area you still would've had deaths.

I never said ignore the decisions made by the Police. If there was allocated seating then you wouldn't have had that number of people getting in anyway plus those that had arrived early would not necessarily have congregated in the central paddock. The dynamics of the situation would have changed. Even if they had rail seats at the time the severity of the tragedy would probably have been mitigated.

Actually no, that isn't the case in Germany. It's on average 20-25euro to stand. Germany just never had the incredible price rises that we have had. Safe standing in Germany is not what makes going to games cheaper. The whole model of the league and wages and tv rights and ownership of the clubs has led to huge increases in attendances and also a steady but gentle price rise, unlike that here. Football all over Europe is cheaper than here, not just Germany.
Construction cost? So replacing the seats with rail seats cost how much? With absolutley no need to adjust the concrete terrace apart from removal of the existing seat bolts and installing the brackets for the standing rails? Some German clubs move their safe standing and seats around in a matter of a couple of weeks. IF and a big IF, the Albion would then increase capacity as a result of installing safe standing in the north, then they might need to convert more toilets and maybe need more mobile kiosks. The costs are minimal and there is such a demand to stand, you would not need to drop ticket prices.
Why are you so against this? We should have the right to choose to stand or sit. This situation of sometimes enforcing the sit down rule and then sometimes not is daft. Allowing away fans to persistently stand throughout the whole game is daft, the rule of all seater stadia is daft.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20708310

Why do you think you have a right to do what you like in a stadium that isn't owned by you? It's not a right, it is a preference.

 

[teaboy]

I never said ignore the decisions made by the Police. If there was allocated seating then you wouldn't have had that number of people getting in anyway plus those that had arrived early would not necessarily have congregated in the central paddock. The dynamics of the situation would have changed. Even if they had rail seats at the time the severity of the tragedy would probably have been mitigated.

And if my granny had bollocks she's be my granddad. Hillsborough, Bradford, Ibrox, Heysel and the Munich air disaster have nothing to do with the current dabate. It is not about a return to old-style terracing with pens and fences. It is about the introduction in this country of a standing system that has been extensively tested in other countries and shown to be safe. It requires very little structural change to stadiums, and allows for the demands of UEFA and FIFA for all-seater stadiums at international level.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20708310

Why do you think you have a right to do what you like in a stadium that isn't owned by you? It's not a right, it is a preference.

CS doesn't think we have a right to do what we want, but that we SHOULD have the right to choose.

 

[00snook]

The club does not support any move for "safe standing" in football stadia and is not considering such a move for the American Express Community Stadium. We have just spent over £100 million developing a state of the art all-seated football stadium, recently named best new venue in the world. One of our main aims was to make the stadium fully inclusive for anyone who wishes to watch and enjoy football, regardless of their age, sex, height, or physical condition, and for them to do so in an atmosphere that is conducive to comfort, great views, and good behaviour. This is in stark contrast to standing areas where a large percentage of the general football watching population are excluded because they would be unable to actually see the pitch. In turn, standing areas create the potential for poor behaviour to go undetected and unresolved. As a club that is doing all it can to promote a family event atmosphere within the stadium and on its approaches, this would be a backward step.

Dreadful.

Dreadful indeed.

The line about poor behaviour becoming undetected is just bizarre. What sort of poor behaviour are they expecting exactly? And how is it easier to detect this if people are sitting down rather than standing up?

 

[drew]

And if my granny had bollocks she's be my granddad. Hillsborough, Bradford, Ibrox, Heysel and the Munich air disaster have nothing to do with the current dabate. It is not about a return to old-style terracing with pens and fences. It is about the introduction in this country of a standing system that has been extensively tested in other countries and shown to be safe. It requires very little structural change to stadiums, and allows for the demands of UEFA and FIFA for all-seater stadiums at international level.



CS doesn't think we have a right to do what we want, but that we SHOULD have the right to choose.

Semantics, surely. Also, how do you counter the arguments relating to the increases in violence and arrests in the German game?

 

[drew]

Dreadful indeed.

The line about poor behaviour becoming undetected is just bizarre. What sort of poor behaviour are they expecting exactly? And how is it easier to detect this if people are sitting down rather than standing up?

You are aware that violence and arrests in German football have increased over recent years!

 

[00snook]

You are aware that violence and arrests in German football have increased over recent years!

I wasn't aware of that no.

So this increase in violence and arrests can be directly attributed to the standing in crowds can it?

Cause I regularly stand at the Amex and have not noticed myself become any more violent, and I certainly haven't been arrested.

 

[yxee]

You are aware that violence and arrests in German football have increased over recent years!

What's the missing conclusion here, that the number of German standing areas have stayed the same in the recent past (indicating zero correlation) or that they've actually been replaced by seating areas in the more distant past (indicating a slight negative correlation)?

 

[KZNSeagull]

I wasn't aware of that no.

So this increase in violence and arrests can be directly attributed to the standing in crowds can it?

Cause I regularly stand at the Amex and have not noticed myself become any more violent, and I certainly haven't been arrested.

Taking the very simplistic view which, sadly, some in authority will, terraces (ie standing) = lots of trouble, arrests and eventual disasters, all seater stadia = dramatic drop in arrests, game more family friendly, boom in attendances etc etc. If safe standing were ever piloted, if there were any hint of trouble it will be stopped.

And I really don't understand why this thread is bounced every time someone is ejected for standing. The more ejections there are, the less amenable the club will be to safe standing in the future, surely?? I am all for safe standing, but an argument for it cannot be based on a few people being ejected cos they don't like the current regulations.

 

[drew]

I wasn't aware of that no.

So this increase in violence and arrests can be directly attributed to the standing in crowds can it?

Cause I regularly stand at the Amex and have not noticed myself become any more violent, and I certainly haven't been arrested.

Ah, so the old 'put your finger your ear, tightly close your eyes and sing ding a ling a ling' syndrome when you hear something that doesn't support your case!

'German hooligans look up to the English' - The Local

German football violence on the rise again - Football news

German football clubs unite against violence - Football - Al Jazeera English


Hooliganism has become a recurring theme in German football | Kit Holden | Independent Editor's choice Blogs


Virtually all the safe standing protaganist cite the German system as the model to follow but the above stories are likely to be what the politicians also take into account, as well as the stadia owners and local authorities if they ever consider changing the law to allow a reintroduction of standing.

There probably is some analysis of when and where the arrests/injuries somewhere but I can't be arsed to search for it but I bet the politicians will!!!!

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Safe standing is a must and ANYONE who disagree's is WRONG.


I miss standing.

 

[Acker79]

Why would it be any cheaper?

It might not be. But there tends to be an expectation that standing is cheaper than sitting, and one of the arguments often put forward is that it would make football more affordable for some fans. I can't see how it makes football more affordable if prices stay the same.

 

[les dynam]

Ah, so the old 'put your finger your ear, tightly close your eyes and sing ding a ling a ling' syndrome when you hear something that doesn't support your case!

'German hooligans look up to the English' - The Local

German football violence on the rise again - Football news

German football clubs unite against violence - Football - Al Jazeera English


Hooliganism has become a recurring theme in German football | Kit Holden | Independent Editor's choice Blogs


Virtually all the safe standing protaganist cite the German system as the model to follow but the above stories are likely to be what the politicians also take into account, as well as the stadia owners and local authorities if they ever consider changing the law to allow a reintroduction of standing.

There probably is some analysis of when and where the arrests/injuries somewhere but I can't be arsed to search for it but I bet the politicians will!!!!

Erm... they've had both traditional and the modern 'safe standing' terracing for years in Germany, in fact it never went away. So not sure how anybody could possibly link any recent rise in arrests (that i don't believe has taken place anyway, but we'll have to agreed to disagree on that) with terracing or safe standing areas. They have always been there, so presumably you'll also be happy to credit them with periods that feature very low numbers of arrests.

 

[les dynam]

I never said ignore the decisions made by the Police. If there was allocated seating then you wouldn't have had that number of people getting in anyway plus those that had arrived early would not necessarily have congregated in the central paddock. The dynamics of the situation would have changed. Even if they had rail seats at the time the severity of the tragedy would probably have been mitigated.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20708310

Why do you think you have a right to do what you like in a stadium that isn't owned by you? It's not a right, it is a preference.

Your lack of knowledge on this subject is truly frightening. You are aware what actually happened at Hillsborough aren't you?

 

[teaboy]

How people watch football has never been a cause of, or preventitive measure against violence. Did the seating cause the violence at Lansdowne Road in 1995, or the trouble in France in 1998? Or is it more likely there are underlying reasons behind violence (politics, drinking, racism, etc) that occur in most countries?

 

[teaboy]

It might not be. But there tends to be an expectation that standing is cheaper than sitting, and one of the arguments often put forward is that it would make football more affordable for some fans. I can't see how it makes football more affordable if prices stay the same.

One of the arguments the Albion are using against it is that because capacity cannot be increased then income will go down if standing was introduced. I don't think ticket price is the issue at all. People simply want the ability to choose to stand at the game if they wish to.

I've regularly bought tickets for gigs where both seats and standing are available, and the same price. I stand because it's how I want to enjoy the event, not because it's cheaper. This choice should be available at football too.