[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[dangull]

While I agree Putin is madder than Mad Mick McMad drunk on a rollercoaster, it takes a few levels of people for a nuclear strike to occur.

And as far as I’m aware we are still making the daily call to Russia

“Not thinking of pressing the button, are you”?

“No. You”?

“Nope”

“Good good, same time tomorrow”

Which is actually a call that takes place every day. Weirdly.

He also repeatedly said he had no plans to invade Ukraine weeks before he did. But I take your point about a number of people have to agree to press the red button. I have no idea who these people are though.

 

[sparkie]

Don't count on the USA if Trump gets in. His madness, compared to a box of frogs, is on a par with Putin's.

I was thinking today my occasional thought that it would be better for the world if Trump had a heart attack and died tonight. Then I thought that if Biden had one instead the Democrats would have to put up a better candidate who could actually beat Trump.

Then I gave myself a

I can't worry about acts of god I can't control.

 

[The Clamp]

He also repeatedly said he had no plans to invade Ukraine weeks before he did. But I take your point about a number of people have to agree to press the red button. I have no idea who these people are though.

Mad Russian bastards, I presume?

 

[dangull]

Don't count on the USA if Trump gets in. His madness, compared to a box of frogs, is on a par with Putin's.

It has nothing to do with who's in charge of a certain country. The NATO agrrement says if one member country is attacked then that is an attack on all the countries of the NATO alliance.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Calm down Captain Mannering …

The next major conflict won’t be a conventional war like WW1 or WW2 - it will be (already is ) high tech warfare conducted from thousands of miles away - remote ‘engagement’ with the enemy where AI is the most ‘valuable’ tool in the box. The US/UK are very adverse to large scale boots on the ground after years of questionable exit strategies and legalities of two costly Gulf Wars - for the US that is in addition to the horrors of Vietnam which has never completely been reconciled in the collective conscience as a ‘just’ war. That for the Allies is the abhorrent ‘benefit’ in them fighting proxy wars when it is not territory you are after but political influence - crudely speaking, where there are enough nationals who are directly under threat from invasion or genocide, one doesn’t need to commit large scale numbers of one’s own troops to the field of combat.

Point of order. Captain Mainwaring. Far too many are sloppy with pronunciation of his name it leads to this school boy error.

 

[Zeberdi]

A Russian invasion of the UK will not happen.

Agreed. Not in the next 50 years anyway.

Being a NATO country, the other members including the USA are bound by agreement to come to our aid by military means.

The Alliances with the US will undergo change if Trump gets in - After years of being the world’s policeman, America is becoming more inward looking - under a second Trump Presidency, you can expect that to go further. One even wonders whether cross-cooperation in international affairs, such as multi-nation task-forces, NATO, UN bodies, the EU etc have received a fatal blow under a global rise in nationalistic popularism. It seems that the appetite for altruist engagement between nations and acting for ‘the good’ of the other is very much lacking in the world today. It shouldn’t need an archaic principle of ‘collective defence’ for NATO to act for the greater good in the post-modern world - If NATO really wants to be a force for ‘good’ in the world, then it needs redefine itself, to stop behaving like a private club moaning about the membership fees and start coming to the direct aid as a fighting force of non-NATO countries also under attack from those who do not uphold the principles of international law and respect for sovereignty.

 

[GT49er]

It has nothing to do with who's in charge of a certain country. The NATO agrrement says if one member country is attacked then that is an attack on all the countries of the NATO alliance.

............. and you are sure Trump will honour that? Okey-dokey, all's well with the world then.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I don't think even Putin has any plans to invade the UK anytime soon. As far as been conscipted to fight in eastern Europe against Russia, I will use the religious grounds of refusal like Muhammed Ali and the Vietnam war.

We live in a secular society.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Scaremongering

Heaven forbid that people might have to stand up both for their rights and their freedom to enjoy those rights. So much easier to mouth from the sidelines about the responsibilities of others and pronounce a list of demands.

Much like Jeremy Corbyn when has no chance of actually delivering his promises.

 

[The Clamp]

Heaven forbid that people might have to stand up both for their rights and their freedom to enjoy those rights. So much easier to mouth from the sidelines about the responsibilities of others and pronounce a list of demands.

Much like Jeremy Corbyn when has no chance of actually delivering his promises.

Mostly because he’s not running for PM?

Anyway, I think we need a bigger army but the idea of conscription in the traditional sense? Very, very, unlikely.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Mostly because he’s not running for PM?

Anyway, I think we need a bigger army but the idea of conscription in the traditional sense? Very, very, unlikely.

Even when he was!

 

[sparkie]

Agreed. Not in the next 50 years anyway.

The Alliances with the US will undergo change if Trump gets in - After years of being the world’s policeman, America is becoming more inward looking - under a second Trump Presidency, you can expect that to go further. One even wonders whether cross-cooperation in international affairs, such as multi-nation task-forces, NATO, UN bodies, the EU etc have received a fatal blow under a global rise in nationalistic popularism. It seems that the appetite for altruist engagement between nations and acting for ‘the good’ of the other is very much lacking in the world today. It shouldn’t need an archaic principle of ‘collective defence’ for NATO to act for the greater good in the post-modern world - If NATO really wants to be a force for ‘good’ in the world, then it needs redefine itself, to stop behaving like a private club moaning about the membership fees and start coming to the direct aid as a fighting force of non-NATO countries also under attack from those who do not uphold the principles of international law and respect for sovereignty.

NATO is a North Atlantic defence pact - in which article 5 applies to the North American and European continents including member state territory ( and naval vessels operating ) North of the Tropic of Cancer.

It absolutely does not need to redefine itself. It is what it is. It is not what it is not. Specifically it is not the military wing of the UN.

It is not a world treaty and as such there is no membership available to eg. Japan, South Korea or Australia.

There are a small handful of European countries which could could still join. eg Ukraine ! Obvious western European non members - Ireland, Austria, Switzerland, Cyprus, Bosnia, Serbia. As far east as Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. Part of Khazakstan even is in Europe so they could potentially join. Other than that only Mexico is eligible.

It does not have a wider world role and further "expansion" of NATO seems to provoke very loud criticism, although there are occasional musings about a new Pacific/Southern version ( not expansion) of NATO ( Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand etc. ) from time to time.

As for Trump.... he could indeed in theory withdraw the USA from NATO which would be significant. Whether he'd have the support for that in Congress ( who couldn't stop it, but could block his budgets if he tried it is a question for American pundits to argue and argue over ).

 

[Nobby]

I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything mate. I'm well aware that this is a very emotive issue for some people but as for reading the room wrong, I really don't care. I posted an opinion (not mine) with sources. You're free to disagree with them if you like. I like that you consider it to be an adventure, I thought it was a few posts on a message board.

Your middle name Obolinskeviczky

Not Russian are you?

 

[raymondo]

 

[raymondo]

Agreed. Not in the next 50 years anyway.

The Alliances with the US will undergo change if Trump gets in - After years of being the world’s policeman, America is becoming more inward looking - under a second Trump Presidency, you can expect that to go further. One even wonders whether cross-cooperation in international affairs, such as multi-nation task-forces, NATO, UN bodies, the EU etc have received a fatal blow under a global rise in nationalistic popularism. It seems that the appetite for altruist engagement between nations and acting for ‘the good’ of the other is very much lacking in the world today. It shouldn’t need an archaic principle of ‘collective defence’ for NATO to act for the greater good in the post-modern world - If NATO really wants to be a force for ‘good’ in the world, then it needs redefine itself, to stop behaving like a private club moaning about the membership fees and start coming to the direct aid as a fighting force of non-NATO countries also under attack from those who do not uphold the principles of international law and respect for sovereignty.

I agree. If it's a Trump presidency I expect he'll restart his insistence that members contribute their full 2.5% (if that's what it was) and I'd agree with that.
If he decided to take the US out of NATO (needs a rebranding then) lets hope he gives two years notice so Europe can get its act together!

 

[raymondo]

Agreed.

Russia has been at war with the west for decades. It's just that the west hasn't noticed it. It took a full scale invasion to get us to sit up and think 'this guy means business'.

Putin has just made a decree that all former parts of Russia and the USSR, and anywhere where Russian is spoken, should become part of Russia. This includes Alaska, and large parts of Europe and Asia, including all the 'stans'. We may think this is insane, but experience tells us that he - actually - means it.

By this decree Putin is creating/reinforcing his propaganda mindset into the Russians of a people 'wronged' by the west over many generations, and promising long term actions to reverse those 'wrongs'.
The west should not dismiss these statements/decrees as if Putin couldn't possibly mean what he says.

 

[thejackal]

Your middle name Obolinskeviczky

Not Russian are you?

Oh dear, did you have to stay up all night to think of that?

 

[raymondo]

Here's an interesting piece on Russian oil pipelines, following Ukraine's recent success in hitting some ports with drones.

 

[Eric the meek]

Oh dear, did you have to stay up all night to think of that?

To be fair, the other day, unprompted and totally out of the blue, you announced your disapproval of someone likening Ukraine's attacks on the oil depot etc to a football match, and then proceeded to spend the next TEN HOURS, trying your utmost to convince us that Ukraine had all but conceded the war.

Then when someone said you hadn't read the room, you said you really didn't care !

Your actions do not match your words. What could be more Russian than that?

 

[thejackal]

To be fair, the other day, unprompted and totally out of the blue, you announced your disapproval of someone likening Ukraine's attacks on the oil depot etc to a football match, and then proceeded to spend the next TEN HOURS, trying your utmost to convince us that Ukraine had all but conceded the war.

Then when someone said you hadn't read the room, you said you really didn't care !

Your actions do not match your words. What could be more Russian than that?

I genuinely don't care. Just because I engage with this thread doesn't mean that I agree with everyone who posts here, or care what their opinions are.

I'm not Russian, but any fair-minded person will tell you that the last line of your post is racist.

You just carry on rattling your sabre, pal. I'm sure the Russians are hanging on your every word ;-)