[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Igzilla]

Early reports that the second defensive line on the Tokmak axis has been breached by Ukrainian forces...

 

[crookie]

Early reports that the second defensive line on the Tokmak axis has been breached by Ukrainian forces...

Great news if so, but there are several defensive lines there so a way to go, but very encouraging all the same. I guess despite all the defensive fortifications, if a large number of the defending forces are poorly led and motivated, once those defences are breached, what happened in Kharkiv last year could quite plausibly happen again here

 

[Triggaaar]

Great news if so, but there are several defensive lines there so a way to go, but very encouraging all the same. I guess despite all the defensive fortifications, if a large number of the defending forces are poorly led and motivated, once those defences are breached, what happened in Kharkiv last year could quite plausibly happen again here

The quality of the defending forces obviously matters, but even if they're well trained they will fail if enough firepower is concentrated on them. Enough missiles hitting their positions as Ukraine forces advance can overwhelm them.

They may retreat back to their next defensive position, although it wouldn't be a surprise if they're not allowed to (by Russian leadership), so they just have to die.

Then the question is whether Ukraine can keep pushing through those lines, or if that's even their plan - maybe Russia will try and bolster the defence with troops from nearby locations, and Ukraine then may push be planning to push through there instead.

It will be very difficult for Russia to work out Ukraine's plan.

 

[crookie]

The quality of the defending forces obviously matters, but even if they're well trained they will fail if enough firepower is concentrated on them. Enough missiles hitting their positions as Ukraine forces advance can overwhelm them.

They may retreat back to their next defensive position, although it wouldn't be a surprise if they're not allowed to (by Russian leadership), so they just have to die.

Then the question is whether Ukraine can keep pushing through those lines, or if that's even their plan - maybe Russia will try and bolster the defence with troops from nearby locations, and Ukraine then may push be planning to push through there instead.

It will be very difficult for Russia to work out Ukraine's plan.

For sure. Ukrainian plans will undoubtedly have many options. Plenty of probing actions seeking the weak spot, once its found, you imagine a huge heavily armoured push through and collapse the lines. The front line is so long, it's impossible for Russia to defend it all in depth. There must be large Ukrainian armoured formations in different areas ready to take advantage where the opportunity arises. I do find it strange, from a purely tactical point of view that Russia appears to use its cruise and other long range missiles on civilian rather than these military buildups unless their intelligence is so poor. A bit like Hitler, affronted at a tiny air raid against Berlin, ordered the Ludtwaffe to target cities instead of the airfields which they had been doing. Gave Fighter Command the respite they needed, and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

[Weststander]

Decent coverage on the Telegraph today. Ukraine’s forces have broken through the first line of defences in the south, Russians fleeing over their own minefields. As someone mentioned in another post, just ten miles to Tokmak where the Russians sole land bridge to the Kherson oblast and Crimea would be severed. In the Donetsk oblast, Bakhmut is being encircled …. this is where Putin/Wagner Group pointlessly lost vast resources over the last 6 months in a brainless cause célèbre on a town with a pre genocide population of 73,000. Meanwhile behind Russian lines in Kursk and Belgorod anti-Putin Russians are reaping havoc.

Classic Sky News this morning, making great play of a destroyed Leopard tank, playing the bad news/grim reaper role. No one ever said they’re infallible. Not mentioning the large numbers of Russian tanks destroyed over the last 48 hours.

A recap, albeit from biased Ukrainian information.

 

[Weststander]

Russian fascist and orginal Russian commander of the Donetsk/Lugansk peoples republics in 2014, Igor Girkin had been very vocal on his YT channel about failings in the MOD, failings of the war effort and in his previous rant, vocal in calling for arrest of Prigorzhin.

So what happened between the last rant and his most present appearance?

FSB warning to wind his neck in?

Tweet says "unavailble" click link it is available for video of his face.



TLDR

View attachment 162114

Unable to get life assurance just now.

 

[Triggaaar]

I do find it strange, from a purely tactical point of view that Russia appears to use its cruise and other long range missiles on civilian rather than these military buildups unless their intelligence is so poor.

Indeed.

A bit like Hitler, affronted at a tiny air raid against Berlin, ordered the Ludtwaffe to target cities instead of the airfields which they had been doing. Gave Fighter Command the respite they needed, and the rest, as they say, is history.

I know that's what we were taught way back when, but the truth is they couldn't have stopped fighter command anyway. Their bombing of airfields made a few marks on large airfields and didn't put them out of action, and they couldn't reach enough airfields anyway - so they'd still have lost the BoB

 

[Triggaaar]

Decent coverage on the Telegraph today. Ukraine’s forces have broken through the first line of defences in the south, Russians fleeing over their own minefields.

While that sounds great, I can't imagine it's happening much is it?

I wouldn't worry too much about propaganda from either side - if the Ukrainian counteroffensive is completely failing, they'll soon be pushed back and we'll end up with Russians advancing. If it's successful, we'll see Russians retreating and Ukraine consolidate their new positions. The truth will out either way soon enough.

 

[Weststander]

Indeed.


I know that's what we were taught way back when, but the truth is they couldn't have stopped fighter command anyway. Their bombing of airfields made a few marks on large airfields and didn't put them out of action, and they could reach enough airfields anyway - so they'd still have lost the BoB

We would’ve run out of fully trained pilots.

 

[Eric the meek]

Good to see Australia and Canada chipping in with money and planes for Ukraine.

This is a global effort against the evil of the Kremlin regime. In spite of whatever atrocities they may still have up their sleeves, I do hope as each day unfolds, the prospect of failure and a bleak future is preying ever more on their minds, and is etched on their faces.

 

[Triggaaar]

We would’ve run out of fully trained pilots.

No we wouldn't, our tactics were to preserve what we had so they'd be ready should Germany try and invade. Bombing our airfields would not have killed our pilots, who would have been engaged with them in the same way they were as our cities were bombed.

The old thinking was that if they'd bombed our airfields we wouldn't have had anywhere to take off from, but while they were bombing our airfields I think they managed to put one airfield completely out of action for a total of one day - and that was it! It just wasn't a practical tactic.

 

[Weststander]

No we wouldn't, our tactics were to preserve what we had so they'd be ready should Germany try and invade. Bombing our airfields would not have killed our pilots, who would have been engaged with them in the same way they were as our cities were bombed.

The old thinking was that if they'd bombed our airfields we wouldn't have had anywhere to take off from, but while they were bombing our airfields I think they managed to put one airfield completely out of action for a total of one day - and that was it! It just wasn't a practical tactic.

Not on the ground, in air to air combat. Goering was able to send over huge formations, because they’d had the advantage of 7 years prep and actively trained 4x as many pilots as us even in 1940. Although we were winning each days air fighting in terms of ratio, we had fewer fully trained pilots left.

 

[A1X]

Not on the ground, in air to air combat. Goering was able to send over huge formations, because they’d had the advantage of 7 years prep and actively trained 4x as many pilots as us even in 1940. Although we were winning each days air fighting in terms of ratio, we had fewer fully trained pilots left.

One big advantage we had though was we were on home territory. If an RAF pilot bailed out over Kent in the morning they could be scooped up and back at base by mid-afternoon, if a German was shot down over Kent he’s sitting it out until it’s over.

 

[Triggaaar]

Not on the ground, in air to air combat.

As I said, we were already engaged in air to air combat, but defending our cities rather than our airfields, so the numbers would have been the same:

Bombing our airfields would not have killed our pilots, who would have been engaged with them in the same way they were as our cities were bombed.

 

[phoenix]

Classic Sky News this morning, making great play of a destroyed Leopard tank, playing the bad news/grim reaper role. No one ever said they’re infallible. Not mentioning the large numbers of Russian tanks destroyed over the last 48 hours.

Was this where they showed the Tank on fire ? If that's the case the main reason it was highlighted was to prove the Russians has altered/photoshopped the image and the bit of the photo where the fire was allegedly was actually just a square added and very obviously misleading. The chap on Sky also highlighted the fact that the picture was very grainy and the tank barely visible.

Image 1 look at the fire on tank its looks like a square that has been added.
image 2 Zoomed.

 

[SeagullinExile]

Indeed.


I know that's what we were taught way back when, but the truth is they couldn't have stopped fighter command anyway. Their bombing of airfields made a few marks on large airfields and didn't put them out of action, and they couldn't reach enough airfields anyway - so they'd still have lost the BoB

They didn’t try to destroy the airfields, they tried to take out the RAF on the ground. They gave it a good shot on the Longest Day, but under-estimated how many aircraft we had left, partly due to German pilots lying about kills they made throughout the battle.

 

[Eric the meek]

Russia is complaining that Ukraine won't engage in dialogue. (Perhaps it's a bit late for that?):

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov is speaking to Russia's RIA news agency.
He says there are "no arrangements and no pre-conditions for talks with the Kyiv regime".
He blames Ukraine for an "unwillingness to engage in dialogue".
Ukraine has said that any deal must restore their territorial integrity, see the complete withdrawal of Russian troops and the restoration of state borders.
Western countries, including the US, have said that letting Russia keep any of the territory it has taken during the war would send the wrong message to other potential aggressors.

Russia-Ukraine war: 'Putin's henchmen' threatening UK, Britons warned; Moscow's troops reach key Ukrainian city

Russian troops have reached the Ukrainian city of Toretsk, an anchor of Kyiv's defences in the eastern Donetsk region. Its capture could bring closer the prospect of Moscow securing the entire Donbas. Meanwhile, the MI5 boss has warned Russia wants to create "mayhem" on UK streets.

news.sky.com

 

[vegster]

They didn’t try to destroy the airfields, they tried to take out the RAF on the ground. They gave it a good shot on the Longest Day, but under-estimated how many aircraft we had left, partly due to German pilots lying about kills they made throughout the battle.

My late Uncle was RAF ground crew with a squadron of Hurricanes. At one point his job was to ride out on a motorbike as soon as a plane returned to collect the film from the gun camera on board.

Whenever the pilot fired the guns a photograph/ film was taken. This was taken immediately to be developed so that the intelligence people could ascertain if an enemy plane had been hit potentially and how badly. He said it was a heartbreaking job, some of the pilots came down badly wounded but he's was told just to get the film and get back...medical attention would come later.
Would have thought the Luftwaffe had a similar system to the RAF in order to confirm the probability of a " Kill " ?

 

[Triggaaar]

Russia is complaining that Ukraine won't engage in dialogue. (Perhaps it's a bit late for that?):

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov is speaking to Russia's RIA news agency.
He says there are "no arrangements and no pre-conditions for talks with the Kyiv regime".
He blames Ukraine for an "unwillingness to engage in dialogue".

It's derisible

 

[Thunder Bolt]

No we wouldn't, our tactics were to preserve what we had so they'd be ready should Germany try and invade. Bombing our airfields would not have killed our pilots, who would have been engaged with them in the same way they were as our cities were bombed.

The old thinking was that if they'd bombed our airfields we wouldn't have had anywhere to take off from, but while they were bombing our airfields I think they managed to put one airfield completely out of action for a total of one day - and that was it! It just wasn't a practical tactic.

Australian, Canadian, Free French, Caribbean and Polish pilots were making up numbers all the time. The last two nations having their own squadrons.