[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Triggaaar]

Of course. But you really don't see what suffering the people of Russia face?

A minority of them, yes. Some have been imprisoned for their actions, but that's a tiny number. Others, who just have to keep quiet - while they don't enjoy the freedoms that we do, their suffering doesn't seem too great, certainly when compared to others I've mentioned.

People are disappearing into the Siberian tundra for speaking out against Putin's war. Groups like Pussy Riot have spent time in jail for daring to be subversive. You don't have sympathy for some of these people?

Sure, but they're a really small number as far as I know. I can certainly sympathise with them, but when speaking about Russians in general (which we were), no, I don't feel sympathy.

We don't want to be so binary, surely? No Russian people deserve our thoughts of sympathy because they have Putin as a leader?

Equating my comments with the notion that no single Russian deserves sympathy would be binary and a bit extreme. You could say that about any country, I currently feel a lot of sympathy for Ukrainians. They're all hugely affected by this war. I don't feel that way about Russians in general (even though some have been extremely brave in standing up to their brutal regime, and have my admiration as well as empathy).

Were all Brits murdering scumbags because Blair took us into an unjust war?

But I'm not calling all (or even lots) of Russians murdering scumbags. I'm not calling them anything. I'm just not sympathetic towards them in general.

 

[Igzilla]

A thread about Ukrainian nazism...

[tweet]1569388936408997888[/tweet]

 

[Baldseagull]

Putin has a point though, Neo Nazism is very strong in Ukraine

Not as strong as in Russia.

 

[Eric the meek]

Sadly many folk don't want to hear the truth. We all know the invasion was wrong, but the heroes and villains narrative is a lot greyer than made out.

What exactly do you mean by that?

The 'narrative' as you put it, couldn't be clearer. Putin said that Ukraine should not exist as a nation state, so he invaded it, a peaceful, sovereign state, with the intention of absorbing its territory into Russia.
In doing so, he has murdered, raped and tortured countless Ukrainians.

In what way is that not black and white? In what way is that a lot greyer than made out?

Why do you refer to the past six months of history as a 'narrative'? That sounds like you think none of the atrocities carried out by Russia ever happened......

 

[heathgate]

Putin has a point though, Neo Nazism is very strong in Ukraine

It is across the entire eastern europe swathe of countries, including Russia .... it's a poor excuse to initiate a conflict costing tens if thousands of lives.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[Gwylan]

A minority of them, yes. Some have been imprisoned for their actions, but that's a tiny number. Others, who just have to keep quiet - while they don't enjoy the freedoms that we do.

Yeah, you can get arrested for just peacefully holding up a sign in Russia, that couldn't happen here ...

Oh

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Sadly many folk don't want to hear the truth. We all know the invasion was wrong, but the heroes and villains narrative is a lot greyer than made out.

As is always the case in war. For example, during WWII Britain carried out some pretty horrendous acts that nowadays would be classed as war crimes.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yeah, you can get arrested for just peacefully holding up a sign in Russia, that couldn't happen here ...

Oh

Or based reports from yesterday, moved on for holding up a blank sheet of paper.

 

[SeagullinExile]

What exactly do you mean by that?

The 'narrative' as you put it, couldn't be clearer. Putin said that Ukraine should not exist as a nation state, so he invaded it, a peaceful, sovereign state, with the intention of absorbing its territory into Russia.
In doing so, he has murdered, raped and tortured countless Ukrainians.

In what way is that not black and white? In what way is that a lot greyer than made out?

Why do you refer to the past six months of history as a 'narrative'? That sounds like you think none of the atrocities carried out by Russia ever happened......

Tbf, atrocities have been carried out by Ukrainian forces too. All be it on a smaller scale. The site of wounded Russian troops being executed in the street wasn’t a good look for Ukraine, but I do believe they dealt with the perpetrators quickly.

 

[Eric the meek]

Tbf, atrocities have been carried out by Ukrainian forces too. All be it on a smaller scale. The site of wounded Russian troops being executed in the street wasn’t a good look for Ukraine, but I do believe they dealt with the perpetrators quickly.

Oh, I don't doubt that Ukrainian troops have committed atrocities. To be clear, I'm not excusing them, but Ukraine is fighting an existential war. Russia is the invader.

When your country is being invaded and occupied by a ruthless, barbaric enemy, treating wounded enemy troops is probably not high on the list.

 

[Audax]

[...]

[...]

Quoting you both so you both get a ping, but not quoting any specific bits of what either of you wrote.

Unfortunately, from what I understand there are elements of truth in what both of you have said. It is, to an extent, true that Ukraine has had a bit of a problem with far-right elements (but then, so have many other European countries). It is also true, to a larger extent, that Putin has overblown how big that problem is. He's also ignored the history and context of how some elements of the far-right became tolerated in Ukraine.

For that, you need to read about the Azov Regiment and its origins and evolution over time. The Azov Regiment formed as a volunteer militia to fight Russian aggression in 2014, to help defend in the Donbas - and it was formed out of people with far-right beliefs. It was subsequently incorporated into the Ukraine army, in large part in response to Russia's annexation of Crimea. In the years since, the leadership of the Azov was largely de-politicised with most of the original far-right leadership leaving and those who remained moderating their (public) views. It remains true, however, that many of the rank and file remained far-right with links to other far-right groups, as evidenced by common symbology worn by members of the Azov.

Looking beyond the Azov, Zelensky himself is a Jew and was democratically elected. There are some far-right elements in Ukraine politics, but Putin's propaganda about his "special military operation" being about removing Nazism from Ukraine is a load of hogwash. If he'd restricted that operation to taking Mariupol and destroying the Azov Regiment, it would be a whole lot more believable, but he hasn't. The reality is that we should be looking at other things that Putin has said for his real motivations - namely comments suggesting that it was a mistake for Russia to allow Ukraine independence after the break up of the USSR. Putin's main interest in Ukraine has nothing to do with Nazism and everything to do with territoriality and re-instating the pro-Russia leadership that Zelensky defeated.

 

[A1X]

[tweet]1569457946635141120[/tweet]

 

[wuntbedruv]

Quoting you both so you both get a ping, but not quoting any specific bits of what either of you wrote.

Unfortunately, from what I understand there are elements of truth in what both of you have said. It is, to an extent, true that Ukraine has had a bit of a problem with far-right elements (but then, so have many other European countries). It is also true, to a larger extent, that Putin has overblown how big that problem is. He's also ignored the history and context of how some elements of the far-right became tolerated in Ukraine.

For that, you need to read about the Azov Regiment and its origins and evolution over time. The Azov Regiment formed as a volunteer militia to fight Russian aggression in 2014, to help defend in the Donbas - and it was formed out of people with far-right beliefs. It was subsequently incorporated into the Ukraine army, in large part in response to Russia's annexation of Crimea. In the years since, the leadership of the Azov was largely de-politicised with most of the original far-right leadership leaving and those who remained moderating their (public) views. It remains true, however, that many of the rank and file remained far-right with links to other far-right groups, as evidenced by common symbology worn by members of the Azov.

Looking beyond the Azov, Zelensky himself is a Jew and was democratically elected. There are some far-right elements in Ukraine politics, but Putin's propaganda about his "special military operation" being about removing Nazism from Ukraine is a load of hogwash. If he'd restricted that operation to taking Mariupol and destroying the Azov Regiment, it would be a whole lot more believable, but he hasn't. The reality is that we should be looking at other things that Putin has said for his real motivations - namely comments suggesting that it was a mistake for Russia to allow Ukraine independence after the break up of the USSR. Putin's main interest in Ukraine has nothing to do with Nazism and everything to do with territoriality and re-instating the pro-Russia leadership that Zelensky defeated.

And The West also has an agenda that Zalensky wishes to further of joining the EU and Nato for the wealth and security
it will bring.

Putin has a natural disinclination to the prospect of the USA putting troops right up against the Russian border the same way that if we were in global proxy conflict with the Irish Republic we would not be too keen on Wales signing a mutual defence pact with Ireland.

These games the big boys play are rarely as simplistic as they first appear.

 

[aolstudios]

Quoting you both so you both get a ping, but not quoting any specific bits of what either of you wrote.

Unfortunately, from what I understand there are elements of truth in what both of you have said. It is, to an extent, true that Ukraine has had a bit of a problem with far-right elements (but then, so have many other European countries). It is also true, to a larger extent, that Putin has overblown how big that problem is. He's also ignored the history and context of how some elements of the far-right became tolerated in Ukraine.

For that, you need to read about the Azov Regiment and its origins and evolution over time. The Azov Regiment formed as a volunteer militia to fight Russian aggression in 2014, to help defend in the Donbas - and it was formed out of people with far-right beliefs. It was subsequently incorporated into the Ukraine army, in large part in response to Russia's annexation of Crimea. In the years since, the leadership of the Azov was largely de-politicised with most of the original far-right leadership leaving and those who remained moderating their (public) views. It remains true, however, that many of the rank and file remained far-right with links to other far-right groups, as evidenced by common symbology worn by members of the Azov.

Looking beyond the Azov, Zelensky himself is a Jew and was democratically elected. There are some far-right elements in Ukraine politics, but Putin's propaganda about his "special military operation" being about removing Nazism from Ukraine is a load of hogwash. If he'd restricted that operation to taking Mariupol and destroying the Azov Regiment, it would be a whole lot more believable, but he hasn't. The reality is that we should be looking at other things that Putin has said for his real motivations - namely comments suggesting that it was a mistake for Russia to allow Ukraine independence after the break up of the USSR. Putin's main interest in Ukraine has nothing to do with Nazism and everything to do with territoriality and re-instating the pro-Russia leadership that Zelensky defeated.

Well, exactly ^

 

[sparkie]

I'd be over the moon if Ukraine joined NATO once Russia is kicked out of their territories.

It would stop a repeat of their suffering, and also stop Russia continuing to lob missiles over the border.

I hope it happens.

 

[Audax]

And The West also has an agenda that Zalensky wishes to further of joining the EU and Nato for the wealth and security
it will bring.

Putin has a natural disinclination to the prospect of the USA putting troops right up against the Russian border the same way that if we were in global proxy conflict with the Irish Republic we would not be too keen on Wales signing a mutual defence pact with Ireland.

These games the big boys play are rarely as simplistic as they first appear.

The interest the West has in Ukraine joining Nato is driven by the Ukraine wanting to join Nato. Not the other way around. And again, Putin has overblown this in his narrative for justifying the war (and really, does anyone actually think this is a valid justification?). Nato already has members on Russia's border (Estonia and Latvia), and as a direct result of his war will have a much longer land border with Nato given he's driven Finland into joining as well.

Once again: look past Putin's propaganda and analyse some of the less guarded things he's said about Ukraine. This war is not about Nazism, it's not about Nato. It's about territorialism, it's about (in Putin's mind) "correcting the mistakes made when the USSR broke up".

Edit to add: I suspect his actions in Ukraine are also a warning to the people of Belarus. If Ukraine had been allowed to join the EU and Nato, and began to prosper (relatively) as a result, the odds of the Belarussians rising against their dictator and ousting him go up massively. Just look at the timing, with Lukashenko having to violently suppress protests against his rule through 2020/21. We then see Putin getting cosy with Lukashenko as part of his build up to the Ukraine invasion. It's not a great leap to deduce that Putin's war in Ukraine is at least, in part, driven by shoring up Russia's hold over Belarus in the wake of those protests.

 

[Eric the meek]

The break up of the Russian Federation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKT40CPjrqw&ab_channel=TimesRadio

From 04:30 onwards (although the rest of the interview is worth a watch).

 

[sparkie]

Belarus has an interesting future now.

If Putin's army is totally destroyed before he manages to retreat back to Russia, then the Kremlin's troops in Belarus won't be able to sure up Lukashenko for long. He's probably already looking for a bolt hole.

 

[SeagullinExile]

50 municipal leaders in Russia calling for Putin’s resignation now according to CNN.

Is this the beginning of the end game for Putin?

 

[bhafc99]

50 municipal leaders in Russia calling for Putin’s resignation now according to CNN.

Is this the beginning of the end game for Putin?

Or will there just be 50 unfortunate balcony accidents over the next few days...?