In fairness, given the gerrymandering plus that the Republicans are currently doing to the electoral system there, the US won’t be a democracy at the next election either. Even more so if Trump does run.
Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊
[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
In fairness, given the gerrymandering plus that the Republicans are currently doing to the electoral system there, the US won’t be a democracy at the next election either. Even more so if Trump does run.
Historically?
We took the lands of the indigenous peoples in Australia and North America. The Spanish & Portuguese took the lands of the indigenous peoples of South America.
The West took the lands of the Palestinian people.
Currently?
The Israelis continue to illegally occupy the West Bank. The Turks continue to illegally occupy Northern Cyprus.
I read it in line with 'on the brink of', meaning that whatever he counts as 'surviving the war' is close, and wouldn't involve Russia taking an area like Mariupol. That would be different to a smaller Ukraine in the future saying 'we survived the war', because what is 'we' in the future may not be the same as what is Ukraine (we) now.
I don't agree with this. What we have to go on is also what Russia has done in Syria, and the fact that cities haven't surrendered yet doesn't mean that they won't. The people in Mariupol are incredibly brave, but they are not getting food or water. If that doesn't change, they will die. Unless something changes, it's difficult to see how it won't fall.
So I don't see what's changed to mean that Ukraine is on the brink of surviving the war.
- Aug 24, 2020
- 7,093
Things that have changed:
Russia failed to achieve its short term objectives.
The war used to be a war of Russian advances. Now it has changed into a war of attrition; stalemate if you like.
Russia has changed tactics through necessity.
Things that haven't changed:
Zelensky's message has been consistent in not surrendering any Ukrainian soil.
Mariupol has not fallen. If it does fall, experience tells us that the Ukrainians will fight to win it back.
The Ukrainians don't give up.
Yes, it's rhetoric. Yes, it's upbeat.
But I believe Zelensky is justified in saying Ukraine is on the brink of surviving the war.
A lot can happen next of course.
I don't know what his reasons are for saying it - perhaps it's more of a message for Putin, in an attempt to show strength before any negotiations.
What I don't think it is, is accurate. Of course I hope I'm wrong.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
If they are right about Russian supplies they will push them back, personally can't see that in the south where the Russians have secured ports and a land corridor from Crimea to Russia, but if the Russians can't fight in other areas, Ukraine may be able to bolster Mariupol defence.
I would hope that Russia using chemical weapons would be the last straw for restraint of NATO air defences.
Never surprised by the generosity of the Poles. Being married to one I get to see this first hand.............https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-60833678
While Russian ground forces running low on supplies, fuel, food etc is a positive, I think the ground war is increasingly irrelevant anyway. Putin’s tactic now largely seems to be long-range missiles pummelling urban areas. A lot harder for Ukraine to fight back against that, unfortunately.
Nobby Cybergoat
Well-known member
- Jul 19, 2021
- 8,622
In that example, there's a very high bar to change the constitution, pasted below, as opposed to changing the law that can be done with a simple majority. No idea whether Ukraine has such procedures enshrined, but you can imagine Putin not caring too much for the legal niceties
"An amendment may be proposed by a two-thirds vote of both Houses of Congress, or, if two-thirds of the States request one, by a convention called for that purpose. The amendment must then be ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures, or three-fourths of conventions called in each State for ratification."
It's not about whether Putin cares (he doesn't), it's about whether after the event (of Putin taking land) the rest of the world can rightly continue sanctions and not recognise the new areas as part of Russia, because Ukrainian law prevented it. If the US constitution really couldn't be changed without such votes, then it should be theoretically possible to say it can't be changed without a referendum - and such measures could equally be applied to Ukraine.
A referendum in an occupied Ukraine would be as fair as a vote in Russia !! Ask the Russian opposition(oh sorry can`t as all in prison or disappeared )
You've completely missed the point. The idea is that it would require a fair referendum (one which obviously couldn't happen while Russia occupy Ukraine) in order to give land to Russia. ie, Ukraine wouldn't be able to give land to Russia, until after they left. And then, I imagine the people wouldn't want to give Russia land.
Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
https://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/mar/14/russian-forces-retreat-mariupol-ukraine-says/
‘ Russian forces retreat at Mariupol, Ukraine says’
The Ukrainians are also claiming there are mass desertions amongst Russian troops.
‘ Russian forces retreat at Mariupol, Ukraine says’
The Ukrainians are also claiming there are mass desertions amongst Russian troops.
Apologies if fixtures
[tweet]1506265327973376009[/tweet]
[tweet]1506265327973376009[/tweet]
Baker lite
Banned
Unbelievable [emoji35]
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ult-green-light-resume-car-production-russia/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ult-green-light-resume-car-production-russia/
It seems pretty astonishing, doesn't it? Macron's regular chat with Putrid doesn't seem to have reduced the pain either.
Because of the horrors facing the people of Mariupol, I'm cautious about getting my hopes up for them, only to learn of something awful in the next couple of weeks.
Is it being suggested this is due to the failings of the Russian forces, rather than Russians not wanting to kill civilians?
Maybe it's car production and how they can work together they've been discussing all this time
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 28,272
- Thread starter
- #6,019
According to different sources there are a combination of things coalescing. The Russians are not enjoying getting shot at, supply lines are stretched and supplies running low, they were told they would be welcomed and its pretty clear every Ukrainian civilian hates them and they can't seem to find tyres that work off road.
Ukraine is winning the propaganda war too, no wonder morale is crumbling.
From the Guardian live update (I've emboldened the bit I found interesting):
"
The Pentagon has been briefing the press off-camera, Julian Borger writes.
For all the talk of potential chemical or biological weapons, the US military sees no signs such weapons are being prepared for imminent use, according to reporting from the briefing.
A senior defence official said there is bitter fighting in and around Mariupol, which the Russians want to be able to declare as a first strategic victory and also use to prevent Ukrainian forces being diverted to defend Kyiv. The port city is now under naval shelling from ships in the Sea of Azov.
Around Mykolaiv, meanwhile, the Russians are having to withdraw in the face of pushback from the town’s Ukrainian defenders. There is also a Ukrainian counterattack around Izyum, a town 75 miles south of Kharkiv.
The official said there are early indications that the Ukrainians are “now able and willing to take back territory”.
The Pentagon said there are continuing morale issues among Russian troops, with food and fuel shortages, as well as frostbite due to a lack of warm weather gear. “They’re struggling on many fronts,” the US official said."
"
The Pentagon has been briefing the press off-camera, Julian Borger writes.
For all the talk of potential chemical or biological weapons, the US military sees no signs such weapons are being prepared for imminent use, according to reporting from the briefing.
A senior defence official said there is bitter fighting in and around Mariupol, which the Russians want to be able to declare as a first strategic victory and also use to prevent Ukrainian forces being diverted to defend Kyiv. The port city is now under naval shelling from ships in the Sea of Azov.
Around Mykolaiv, meanwhile, the Russians are having to withdraw in the face of pushback from the town’s Ukrainian defenders. There is also a Ukrainian counterattack around Izyum, a town 75 miles south of Kharkiv.
The official said there are early indications that the Ukrainians are “now able and willing to take back territory”.
The Pentagon said there are continuing morale issues among Russian troops, with food and fuel shortages, as well as frostbite due to a lack of warm weather gear. “They’re struggling on many fronts,” the US official said."