[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Juan Albion]

I've been watching livestreams from Odessa for hours. They just went dark.

 

[Billy in Bristol]

They won’t be returning any of the money though will they?

They should freeze it instead.

 

[Springal]

Ukranian PM has said that Russian forces are trying to seize Chernobyl .... not sure what happens if they target the nuclear waste still there?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-nuclear-russia-attack-ukraine-b2022444.html

 

[Juan Albion]

Ukranian PM has said that Russian forces are trying to seize Chernobyl .... not sure what happens if they target the nuclear waste still there?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-nuclear-russia-attack-ukraine-b2022444.html

They won't. It just happens to be on the road from Belarus to Kiev.

 

[beorhthelm]

Like the son of an ex KGB agent in the House of Lords.

Edit to add: Carrie Johnson (Symonds) spent a few years in Russia and is part of the Conservative Friends of Russia.

sins of the father included in the purge, got it.

 

[Springal]

Ukrainian ambassador to US: Russian platoon surrendered because they did not think they would be fighting Ukrainians
Speaking in Washington, Oksana Markarova said: "Kyiv is fully in control, and we have captured two helicopters... have been shot outside of Kyiv"

"There is an ongoing fight in Hostomol airport,” she added.

 

[peterward]

It is a huge threat. We also know that the big bad monster had a huge hand in how something played out in 2016 and how elections in both the US and UK have played out thereafter. We have a government that has taken large eye watering donations from connections to the regime. We have ministers making decisions on these matters making investment decisions regarding their personal wealth. Apologies if I'm skeptical that our current government has any capacity to act in anything but a self serving deceitful way.

I can see people bringing these WWII references into play, if you want a WWII reference, there is only 1 country that really won in Europe in 1945, and it wasn't the UK, US or it's allies.

That is all codswallop.

2016 has nothing to do with what Putin is doing today , even though you try and circumvent Frutos warning to makke your cheap brexit dig. What politicians have or havent done wouldnt have probable foreseen him going full Hitler, and it is an argument for tomorrow or something that will hopefully be dealt with now. As much some may love to see Tory blood out of entrenched tribalism, I'd rather see cross party attempts to work together to fix this once for all and seize all corrupt russian funds. If malfeasance has occured, we can deal with that later. The truly grown up thing to do now is to have full cross party involvement in this issue.

And your references to WW2 are just plain wrong. The Russians signed a pact with Hitler for personal gain, they only fought after they were attacked. We on this side of Europe did much to defeat Nazi Germany in Europe. The Russians did fight hard, should be commended and the Russian winter and Hitlers over extension were two of the major parts that tipped the balance in the east.

Do you know what the other major factor was? It was British intelligence, after we cracked Enigma, we told the Soviets of the germans positions/movements and plans. The tide very quickly turned thanks to British intelligence.

I would never claim that the UK won WW2 in europe, but to suggest the Soviets did alone is just too simplisitic or disingenous.

They were a major part and being first to Berlin isnt the only consideration. we were right behind on the western flank.

 

[portslade seagull]

It is a huge threat. We also know that the big bad monster had a huge hand in how something played out in 2016 and how elections in both the US and UK have played out thereafter. We have a government that has taken large eye watering donations from connections to the regime. We have ministers making decisions on these matters making investment decisions regarding their personal wealth. Apologies if I'm skeptical that our current government has any capacity to act in anything but a self serving deceitful way.

I can see people bringing these WWII references into play, if you want a WWII reference, there is only 1 country that really won in Europe in 1945, and it wasn't the UK, US or it's allies.

Is that the same country that had go be aided by the British Convoys to give them arms

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

So Cyber warfare is obviously a Russian speciality.

To what extent could the tables be turned? Surely the combined capability of the west could seriously damage Putin's ability to wage war and run the nation and the economy.

We then deny, in exactly the same way he does. Possible? Desirable?

 

[Springal]

So Cyber warfare is obviously a Russian speciality.

To what extent could the tables be turned? Surely the combined capability of the west could seriously damage Putin's ability to wage war and run the nation and the economy.

We then deny, in exactly the same way he does. Possible? Desirable?

As I work in this space - the thought of real cyber warfare scares the shit out of me. NHS, Local Govt, Transport, Utilities - most of these are massively under funded in terms of IT security etc and I imagine are exposed.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

sins of the father included in the purge, got it.

Why did Johnson, as Foreign Secretary, give his security the slip, to go to Lebedev's villa in Italy for a weekend, and was photographed at the airport looking very disheveled? Why did the Security services hold back some information because he couldn't be trusted?
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/boris-johnson-apos-record-foreign-095717737.html?

 

[Swansman]

Just feel for the millions of citizens/families in Ukraine.. No one other than Putin and his cronies wants this war.

Agree with the first part. Not so much the second. Big war is big business, there are some people around the world who makes a lot of money from war...

But more importantly and mentioned far too little in the public debate is that China is the country that would gain the most from a big, dirty and expensive war. Russia will need to export their stuff to someone and China will quite obviously be that "someone". And with no competition, they will get it very cheaply. Meanwhile if we are all dragged into this, our states will look for investments somewhere as there is a lot of empty pockets... and China might be that "somewhere". The third big/cataclysmic "event" in a row where they are the winners.

I dont know how effective sanctions will be. There will still be plenty (and more importantly, productive) nations willing to trade with Russia. Neutral, pro-Russian or anti-Western countries (such as China, Qatar, Turkey, Iran and some others) could respond with the same means... and that would be pretty bad for the Western non-producing service economies.

All still very unclear though... I think in a month or so we're going to have a better idea of the impact of all of this.

 

[Wardy's twin]

That is all codswallop.

2016 has nothing to do with what Putin is doing today , even though you try and circumvent Frutos warning to makke your cheap brexit dig. What politicians have or havent done wouldnt have probable foreseen him going full Hitler, and it is an argument for tomorrow or something that will hopefully be dealt with now. As much some may love to see Tory blood out of entrenched tribalism, I'd rather see cross party attempts to work together to fix this once for all and seize all corrupt russian funds. If malfeasance has occured, we can deal with that later. The truly grown up thing to do now is to have full cross party involvement in this issue.

And your references to WW2 are just plain wrong. The Russians signed a pact with Hitler for personal gain, they only fought after they were attacked. We on this side of Europe did much to defeat Nazi Germany in Europe. The Russians did fight hard, should be commended and the Russian winter and Hitlers over extension were two of the major parts that tipped the balance in the east.

Do you know what the other major factor was? It was British intelligence, after we cracked Enigma, we told the Soviets of the germans positions/movements and plans. The tide very quickly turned thanks to British intelligence.

I would never claim that the UK won WW2 in europe, but to suggest the Soviets did alone is just too simplisitic or disingenous.

They were a major part and being first to Berlin isnt the only consideration. we were right behind on the western flank.

Have to disagree with you, what has happened today has been part of a long term plan with lots of sub plots , weakening Europe has been part of that agenda and Britain leaving the EU has weakened Europe politically as it played on internal nationalist tendencies. As you say though there are bigger fish to fry at the moment and there is a need to pull together .

Should Starmer have called out Johnson for not doing enough , in my opinion yes because it wasn't enough.

Agreed Russia did not win the war by itself and it could even be argued that its actions in 1938/1939 and early 1940 encouraged the spread of the war.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

As I work in this space - the thought of real cyber warfare scares the shit out of me. NHS, Local Govt, Transport, Utilities - most of these are massively under funded in terms of IT security etc and I imagine are exposed.

Well, i'm sure, but Putin has been been attacking them anyway as far as I understand it. Would you say that this could be a vulnerability that Russia has?

 

[beorhthelm]

Why did Johnson, as Foreign Secretary, give his security the slip, to go to Lebedev's villa in Italy for a weekend, and was photographed at the airport looking very disheveled? Why did the Security services hold back some information because he couldn't be trusted?
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/boris-johnson-apos-record-foreign-095717737.html?

because he's a **** and thought he'd go on a jolly? it doesnt mean much more, unless you want to hold every national from every other country in suspicion. many Russians may left Russia to get away from the politics there, but we'll ostracize them.

 

[MJsGhost]

quite irritating people want to kick this ball around. Chernukhin left russia 18 years ago, became a UK citizen 10 years ago. someone leave a country and we hold that against them forever? shouldnt we welcome defectors? or maybe we ban all immigrants from participation in politics, and business too, only way to be sure of no foreign influence.

Abramovich is 'Portuguese'. Deripaska is 'Cypriot'. I'm not sure there's an awful lot to be read into passports of convenience, other than they are useful for doing business and refuge if they fall out of favour with the Kremlin.

Chernukhin may have fallen out with Putin, but is still a Russian (albeit with UK citizenship too) with a web of dubious financial affairs and considerable remaining financial interests in Russia. There doesn't need to be a cosy relationship with Putin for individuals to lobby against tough sanctions on Russia. Highlighting financial links between individuals with something to lose and a party making related policy decisions is fair game IMO.

It's also a wider issue than defectors/foreigners/immigrants participating in politics anyway. It could be a particular industry sector making large donations to a party in government - if there are decisions to be made that have the potential to hurt or harm that sector, donations to that party should be subject to particular scrutiny. As a voter, I want transparency on the outside influences that can be brought to bear on politicians and the decisions they make.

I dont think any of this type of stuff is helpful (not that it matters one jot on NSC), whatever your domestic political views, whatever side of the Brexit debate you sat, whatever politician may have been at X or Y dinner with Russians or questionable characters from other nations like China, wether Boris the big prat is guilty of lockdown breaches.

Right now, the whole country needs to unite against a facist dictator invading a peaceful nation in Europe.

Whilst I agree that there needs to be a united front against Putin, I think it's perfectly valid to discuss and scrutinise why some decisions on the response might go one way or the other. Shining a light on the murky world of donations, influence, and lobbying can only help ensure the right decisions are made for the right reasons - MPs (or members of the house of lords) with links to Russia or Russian money are less likely to lobby or vote against sanctions if those links are out in the open.

 

[Springal]

Well, i'm sure, but Putin has been been attacking them anyway as far as I understand it. Would you say that this could be a vulnerability that Russia has?

I doubt it directly, probably just groups within Russia having a play. If they really put their minds to it, it wouldn't be to difficult.

Possibly - but who would do it - and depends if you think their technology infrastructure is as under invested as ours.

https://www.nationalhealthexecutive...7 cyber-attack,lock down hospitals in England. should have been a warning so hopefully things have improved, but not convinced.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

because he's a **** and thought he'd go on a jolly? it doesnt mean much more, unless you want to hold every national from every other country in suspicion. many Russians may left Russia to get away from the politics there, but we'll ostracize them.

That's quite a leap from what I said and almost whataboutery.

 

[Ⓩ-Ⓐ-Ⓜ-Ⓞ-Ⓡ-Ⓐ]

Bloody hell... a sign of the mad times we live in - I've just realised former heavyweight boxer Vitali Klitschko is the current mayor of Kiev and the one giving orders on a night time curfew.

 

[heathgate]

Putin's 200,000 troops are not enough to occupy Ukraine and attack the Baltics.

His airpower would be seriously outnumbered by better planes as well.

I cannot see the wider invasion until he gets Trump back in the White House ( if he does ).

That last sentence is a bit random.

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