[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[raymondo]

I read that the Toropets Angel was the biggest non nuclear explosion in the war, or maybe ever.

Yes I didn't get it's significance at the time.

 

[raymondo]

Things are becoming clearer. What the hell is Ukraine paying for... Trump will give them nothing.
BBC News - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c625ex282zzt
Trump says Europe should provide security guarantees for Ukraine ahead of Starmer talks - follow live - BBC News

 

[raymondo]

Trump says something like "it's a great deal for Ukraine because they have us over there..." (It's not a quote). So, I guess he means US miners, geo workers, real estate planners...but nobody with a gun.
Will that stop Russia bombing Ukraine? I doubt it.
Stay at home Zelenskiy, save the air fare.

 

[BN41Albion]

Trump says something like "it's a great deal for Ukraine because they have us over there..." (It's not a quote). So, I guess he means US miners, geo workers, real estate planners...but nobody with a gun.
Will that stop Russia bombing Ukraine? I doubt it.
Stay at home Zelenskiy, save the air fare.

It's going to be very depressing seeing Zelenskyy in Washington, I'm sure, what with the pressure to be completely robbed by Trump and his cronies.
Just hoping so much that Starmer stands up to trump any way he can and puts his foot down re fact checking him. I appreciate he's in a very tricky situation, but Macron did a fairly good job on that. Although I hated seeing all the touchy feely handshaking, backpatting and knee slapping, etc. Really hope starmer keeps his distance in that regard

 

[marlowe]

Things are becoming clearer. What the hell is Ukraine paying for... Trump will give them nothing.
BBC News - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c625ex282zzt
Trump says Europe should provide security guarantees for Ukraine ahead of Starmer talks - follow live - BBC News

It doesn't seem like a very reciprocal arrangement.

Usually in a deal one party does one thing and the other party does something in exchange.

In Trump's idea of the deal Ukraine provide billions of rare earth minerals to the US and in return he expects Europe, who aren't even party to the deal, to provide the security guarantees and arrangements.

Its absolute nonsense.

 

[Motogull]

It doesn't seem like a very reciprocal arrangement.

Usually in a deal one party does one thing and the other party does something in exchange.

In Trump's idea of the deal Ukraine provide billions of rare earth minerals to the US and in return he expects Europe, who aren't even party to the deal, to provide the security guarantees and arrangements.

Its absolute nonsense.

The whole thing is a shit show with heartbreaking levels of casualties and destruction already.

I still struggle with the whole 'war' thing. It is an invasion as I see it. Nothing but a land grab. Then this Bunglekunnt wades in somehow ending the destruction on the basis of profiting from the invaded country on his agenda. There has to be a better way of ending the bloodshed than this.

 

[Eric the meek]

'If we don't get security guarantees, we won't have a ceasefire' - Zelensky, BBC article, linked above.

Three drafts of the minerals deal. Three versions. Trump has had three goes at it. But still no security guarantee.

It's not going to happen is it? The war is going to continue.

 

[raymondo]

It's going to be very depressing seeing Zelenskyy in Washington, I'm sure, what with the pressure to be completely robbed by Trump and his cronies.
Just hoping so much that Starmer stands up to trump any way he can and puts his foot down re fact checking him. I appreciate he's in a very tricky situation, but Macron did a fairly good job on that. Although I hated seeing all the touchy feely handshaking, backpatting and knee slapping, etc. Really hope starmer keeps his distance in that regard

Yep, it's a fine line, flattering Trump but being unafraid to fact check him.
The flattery is only useful if there's actually something to get from Trump in terms of defense/security for Ukraine...and I firmly believe there isn't.

Europe needs to believe Trump's words when he says 'Europe needs to look after its own security ' (not a quote) - he means it, he's promised that to Putin, I'm sure of it.
Let's stop kissing his feet as if he's going to change his mind.
NATO is dead for now, US support is dead, long live a new European defense force and hurry up.

 

[marlowe]

'If we don't get security guarantees, we won't have a ceasefire' - Zelensky, BBC article, linked above.

Three drafts of the minerals deal. Three versions. Trump has had three goes at it. But still no security guarantee.

It's not going to happen is it? The war is going to continue.

Certainly not a peace deal because any peace deal would involve the cowardly toad Trump standing up to Putin which just isn't going to happen.

 

[raymondo]

'If we don't get security guarantees, we won't have a ceasefire' - Zelensky, BBC article, linked above.

Three drafts of the minerals deal. Three versions. Trump has had three goes at it. But still no security guarantee.

It's not going to happen is it? The war is going to continue.

I hope Europe and Zelenskiy can see the situation for what it is.
The best Starmer may get out of Trump could be more weaponry for Ukraine, but even that I now doubt.

 

[SouthSaxon]

I’d hope that Europe is very quietly working on its own deal with the Ukrainians. There was a quote last week from a diplomat suggesting as much, followed by a denial.

Both Ukraine and Europe want US involvement but it should be obvious that things aren’t heading in that direction.

 

[Triggaaar]

It's going to be very depressing seeing Zelenskyy in Washington, I'm sure, what with the pressure to be completely robbed by Trump and his cronies.
Just hoping so much that Starmer stands up to trump any way he can and puts his foot down re fact checking him. I appreciate he's in a very tricky situation, but Macron did a fairly good job on that.

Trump has known Macron for a long time though, so Trump is more likely to let him get away with things. Macron can correct him, but make it seem like he's just a mate having a small disagreement. Left wing Starmer is a long way behind and needs to be more careful. I don't mind if he doesn't correct Trump's BS, as long as he doesn't agree with it. It's easy to avoid direct questions from the press with comments like 'We don't need to get bogged down with figures at this point, this is a broader meeting and the US are supporting Ukraine' etc.

 

[raymondo]

Hopefully Zelensky signs whatever papers Trump puts in front of him. Nothing gets paid until the war is over. Then when the US comes with the begging bowl to start being repaid Zelensky can tell Trump to "do one". Whats Trump gonna do? Invade Ukraine? lol

Quite possibly he would invade, yes!
Nah, just don't sign the deal, there's no defence in it for Ukraine.

 

[peterward]

Trump says something like "it's a great deal for Ukraine because they have us over there..." (It's not a quote). So, I guess he means US miners, geo workers, real estate planners...but nobody with a gun.
Will that stop Russia bombing Ukraine? I doubt it.
Stay at home Zelenskiy, save the air fare.

It 100% won't....... They will try and freeze conflict...... "peace".... and remove santions, replenish sovereign wealth fund, adapt plans to be "frozen assets" proof and keep the military industrial complex churning out a new huge stockpile of weapons then bide time for when Trump is gone.

The whole ruse that Trump is swallowing and paroting "we can't have NATO at our borders as it threatens security" is bullshit and invalidated by Finland doing just that along 1300 miles of new NATO border on their border. The Russians actions versus words, has been to move weapons and manpower away from the new NATO border to send to Ukraine.

Russia just wants to ensure no NATO for Ukraine or NATO troops to set up the future conditions for the next bite at full destruction/subjugation, when they're strong enough again and when political conditions change...... Ukraine is central to their imperial fantasies.

 

[raymondo]

Meanwhile, Ukraine is having success with counterattacks in Kursk region .

 

[Cordwainer]

Trump says something like "it's a great deal for Ukraine because they have us over there..." (It's not a quote). So, I guess he means US miners, geo workers, real estate planners...but nobody with a gun.
Will that stop Russia bombing Ukraine? I doubt it.
Stay at home Zelenskiy, save the air fare.

Does he mean that Ukraine will get the ‘benefit’ of US companies and expertise helping to rebuild there should the invasion ever finish? Isn’t that just helping US businesses interests of himself and his cabal al la post Vietnam?

 

[Eric the meek]

And see here, the Russian perspective. More North Koreans.

It 100% won't....... They will try freeze conflict...... "peace" and remove santions, replenish sovereign wealth fund, adapt plans to be "frozen assets" proof and keep the military industrial complex churning out a new huge stockpile of weapons and bide time for when Trump is gone.

The whole ruse that Trump is swallowing and paroting "we can't have NATO at our borders as it threatens security" is bullshit and invalidated by Finland doing just that along 1300 miles of new NATO border on their border. The Russians actions versus words, has been to move weapons and manpower away from the new NATO border to send to Ukraine.

Russia just wants to ensure no NATO for Ukraine or NATO troops to set up the furture conditions for the next bite at full destruction/subjugation, when they're strong enough again and when political conditions change...... Ukraine is central to their imperial fantasies.

The reason that Putin is so anti-Nato, is because he sees Nato as a barrier to his further expansion to the west.

 

[Triggaaar]

'If we don't get security guarantees, we won't have a ceasefire' - Zelensky, BBC article, linked above.

Three drafts of the minerals deal. Three versions. Trump has had three goes at it. But still no security guarantee.

It's not going to happen is it? The war is going to continue.

Which is what we've said from the start. Trump has even rowed back from saying it'll end, instead saying he may get a deal with Putin but can't promise it.

Zelenskyy needs to stay on side with the US without agreeing to give his country's resources away.

 

[peterward]

Does he mean that Ukraine will get the ‘benefit’ of US companies and expertise helping to rebuild there should the invasion ever finish? Isn’t that just helping US businesses interests of himself and his cabal al la post Vietnam?

Once US companies have completed billions of dollars of renovations, all paid for by Ukraines mineral wealth, might be rather nice to have said renovations destroyed again by Russia and thus restart the cycle

 

[Eric the meek]

Which is what we've said from the start. Trump has even rowed back from saying it'll end, instead saying he may get a deal with Putin but can't promise it.

Zelenskyy needs to stay on side with the US without agreeing to give his country's resources away.

Yep. Trump actually said that signing the minerals deal gives Ukraine 'the right to fight on'. (i.e. without the US).