[News] Royal Mail what next?

[Brian Fantana]

A bit unhelpful, antagonistic even, to make the award during pay disputes with the Union.

Agreed. The timing was a bit crass.

 

[studio150]

My Charlton tickets turned up today. Anne Frank's drum kit springs to mind.

Lucky, still waiting

 

[attila]

Yes, I’m sure that’s all true but the fairness or otherwise of it all is not what drives the situation. Capitalism rewards scarcity and that include labour skills. The highest earners have skills that they can use elsewhere and they will. If people on the shop floor think they are being under valued then perhaps they should do the same. I don’t mean that in a cold hearted way but it just isn’t worthwhile working for an employer you feel you can’t trust and there is a labour shortage. At the end of the day the Royal Mail is just another delivery company.

No, Royal Mail IS NOT ‘just another delivery company’.

Posties are the pillar boxes of their communities: not just faceless ciphers delivering packages but the eyes and ears of the streets they walk, checking on the elderly and vulnerable, brightening up the day for the lonely.

They fulfil a valuable social service and the Royal Mail should be renationalised without compensation except to small investors and pension funds.

Disaster capitalist Tories are destroying this country. £40 billion to spaff on Truss’ unspeakable ‘Britannia Unchained’ economic fantasy (‘at last, a real Tory budget’ vomited the Faily Mail, of course no apology when even the high priests of capital binned it and the short sellers profiteered) and half that on PPE contracts to their mates. But no money to give essential workers enough to help them
live in dignity.

No mandate, no credibility, gerrymandering, profiteering. Tories - England’s answer to Bill Archer. And, of course, he was one of them. General Election now.

 

[Brian Fantana]

No, Royal Mail IS NOT ‘just another delivery company’.

Posties are the pillar boxes of their communities: not just faceless ciphers delivering packages but the eyes and ears of the streets they walk, checking on the elderly and vulnerable, brightening up the day for the lonely.

They fulfil a valuable social service and the Royal Mail should be renationalised without compensation except to small investors and pension funds.

Disaster capitalist Tories are destroying this country. £40 billion to spaff on Truss’ unspeakable ‘Britannia Unchained’ economic fantasy (‘at last, a real Tory budget’ vomited the Faily Mail, of course no apology when even the high priests of capital binned it and the short sellers profiteered) and half that on PPE contracts to their mates. But no money to give essential workers enough to help them
live in dignity.

No mandate, no credibility, gerrymandering, profiteering. Tories - England’s answer to Bill Archer. And, of course, he was one of them. General Election now.

Labour also had a good go at selling it off a couple of times. The Consignia re-brand in the early 00s saw talks take place to sell the company to TPG. Incidentally, the company at that point was posting annual losses of more than £1bn, which is quite a bit worse than the mismanagement accusations being levelled at the current leadership.

Mandelson then had another go at selling it off in the late 00s - this time just a 30% stake, based on the findings of the Hooper report. There was interest at the time from TNT, CVC and Deutsche Post.

The issue underlying all of this is that the market that Royal Mail operate in has vastly changed over the past two decades, but the majority of working practices have remained fairly static. I'm absolutely with you in terms of the vital role that posties play in terms of the social aspects (in fact, I've been pushing that very thing in a meeting today), and I've already posted above that it is an aspect that needs to be maintained in some guise, even with any changes that may be coming.

Renationalising the company would not make the current difficulties go away. They'd still be faced with the challenges of an infrastructure and operational network that is largely geared up for delivering letters to every home address in the country daily, when in fact the volume being posted won't make that justifable for much longer. As I've said a few times on this thread, there absolutely is a brilliantly profitable company in there (and by that I mean one that could afford to pay the sort of wage rises that the union is seeking), but there needs to be an acceptance on all sides that it is going to need to be a slightly different model to what has been traditional. That doesn't have to mean lots of people losing their jobs, but it will mean that the job itself becomes slightly different (both in terms of duties and hours worked). I appreciate for many posties that this would represent both an emotional and logistical challenge, but the alternative just isn't viable for much longer - whether privately or publically owned, IMO.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

No, Royal Mail IS NOT ‘just another delivery company’.

Posties are the pillar boxes of their communities: not just faceless ciphers delivering packages but the eyes and ears of the streets they walk, checking on the elderly and vulnerable, brightening up the day for the lonely.

They fulfil a valuable social service and the Royal Mail should be renationalised without compensation except to small investors and pension funds.

Disaster capitalist Tories are destroying this country. £40 billion to spaff on Truss’ unspeakable ‘Britannia Unchained’ economic fantasy (‘at last, a real Tory budget’ vomited the Faily Mail, of course no apology when even the high priests of capital binned it and the short sellers profiteered) and half that on PPE contracts to their mates. But no money to give essential workers enough to help them
live in dignity.

No mandate, no credibility, gerrymandering, profiteering. Tories - England’s answer to Bill Archer. And, of course, he was one of them. General Election now.

Great speech but no need to shout. I wouldn’t have privatized the post (or anything else) but it has happened and the world has moved on. Communication has changed completely from when we were kids. If the Royal Mail is a social service as you claim then what are the qualifications required ? Social workers have degrees and go on umpteen training courses to deal with the needs of their clients. As do teachers, TAs, therapists etc etc. Basically you are talking rubbish. You can’t just turn up and provide a ‘social service’ like in the 1970s.

 

[Brian Fantana]

Great speech but no need to shout. I wouldn’t have privatized the post (or anything else) but it has happened and the world has moved on. Communication has changed completely from when we were kids. If the Royal Mail is a social service as you claim then what are the qualifications required ? Social workers have degrees and go on umpteen training courses to deal with the needs of their clients. As do teachers, TAs, therapists etc etc. Basically you are talking rubbish. You can’t just turn up and provide a ‘social service’ like in the 1970s.

To say he is talking rubbish is very unfair, as he's clearly not claiming that they're an official branch of the social services. What he is absolutely correct about is that posties pride themselves on the unofficial service that they provide to the communities that they serve. As @attila says, they're often the only person that an elderly or lonely person will regularly see and interact with. Posties have an absolutely brilliant knack for knowing when someone on their round has had a fall or some other accident - it might be because that person isn't answering the door, it might be because the curtains haven't been opened, it might be because the car is/isn't there. Internally here, there are plenty of stories each week of posties who have interrupted their rounds because their instinct is that one of their regulars is in trouble, and more often than not they're correct.

Whilst the above isn't strictly in their job description, and it isn't something that the company gets any revenue from, it is absolutely something that plays a vital role in supporting many communities around the country. As I've posted above, the changes to the market (and what RM will need to do in response) will make that role more difficult for posties to play, but it is really important that they do keep doing it in some guise.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

To say he is talking rubbish is very unfair, as he's clearly not claiming that they're an official branch of the social services. What he is absolutely correct about is that posties pride themselves on the unofficial service that they provide to the communities that they serve. As @attila says, they're often the only person that an elderly or lonely person will regularly see and interact with. Posties have an absolutely brilliant knack for knowing when someone on their round has had a fall or some other accident - it might be because that person isn't answering the door, it might be because the curtains haven't been opened, it might be because the car is/isn't there. Internally here, there are plenty of stories each week of posties who have interrupted their rounds because their instinct is that one of their regulars is in trouble, and more often than not they're correct.

Whilst the above isn't strictly in their job description, and it isn't something that the company gets any revenue from, it is absolutely something that plays a vital role in supporting many communities around the country. As I've posted above, the changes to the market (and what RM will need to do in response) will make that role more difficult for posties to play, but it is really important that they do keep doing it in some guise.

If that’s the case are they DBS checked ? Do they understand mental health, autism etc ? He is talking rubbish because from that political platform he is basically claiming that a social service can be performed by someone with no qualifications or training. With no checks and balances and training how do we actually know what they do or its value ?
Or the above is irrelevant and they simply post letters.

Ps my tone is in response to the political rant I received from him. No need for it.

 

[Brian Fantana]

If that’s the case are they DBS checked ? Do they understand mental health, autism etc ? He is talking rubbish because from that political platform he is basically claiming that a social service can be performed by someone with no qualifications or training. With no checks and balances and training how do we actually know what they do or its value ?
Or the above is irrelevant and they simply post letters.

Ps my tone is in response to the political rant I received from him. No need for it.

Essentially, they act like decent human beings - they get to know the people on their round. Because of their model of employment (not paid by the number of items they deliver), they take the time to investigate if something isn't right. No one is claiming they are trained for this (although I know several posties who DO hold degrees in social care and other related fields, but have chosen not to work in that industry currently), but I really struggle to see how it can be a negative thing that someone has the knowledge and intuition to suspect that one of their elderly/vulnerable/lonely customers might be in trouble. They don't go in gung ho and sort these issues out themselves (unless someone has collapsed and is in imminent danger - as a lot of posties are CPR trained through company-sponsored courses), but they'll call the emergency services or raise the alarm with a neighbour. It is more an early warning system. If it was my elderly relative who'd had a fall and it was a choice between them laying there for hours or a postie raising the alarm because they've sensed something is wrong then I know which of those options I'd choose.

 

[The Clamp]

If that’s the case are they DBS checked ? Do they understand mental health, autism etc ? He is talking rubbish because from that political platform he is basically claiming that a social service can be performed by someone with no qualifications or training. With no checks and balances and training how do we actually know what they do or its value ?
Or the above is irrelevant and they simply post letters.

Ps my tone is in response to the political rant I received from him. No need for it.

I don’t want to take sides but I will say that one doesn’t need qualifications to notice if somebody might need help. Or indeed just say a cheery hello to a lonely person.

If you saw someone drowning would you walk away, saying to yourself “well, I’m not a qualified life-guard”.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Essentially, they act like decent human beings - they get to know the people on their round. Because of their model of employment (not paid by the number of items they deliver), they take the time to investigate if something isn't right. No one is claiming they are trained for this (although I know several posties who DO hold degrees in social care and other related fields, but have chosen not to work in that industry currently), but I really struggle to see how it can be a negative thing that someone has the knowledge and intuition to suspect that one of their elderly/vulnerable/lonely customers might be in trouble. They don't go in gung ho and sort these issues out themselves (unless someone has collapsed and is in imminent danger - as a lot of posties are CPR trained through company-sponsored courses), but they'll call the emergency services or raise the alarm with a neighbour. It is more an early warning system. If it was my elderly relative who'd had a fall and it was a choice between them laying there for hours or a postie raising the alarm because they've sensed something is wrong then I know which of those options I'd choose.

So do you want to pay them as untrained social workers or deliverers of letters ?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I don’t want to take sides but I will say that one doesn’t need qualifications to notice if somebody might need help. Or indeed just say a cheery hello to a lonely person.

If you saw someone drowning would you walk away, saying to yourself “well, I’m not a qualified life-guard”.

Definitely not. Equally I wouldn’t want paying for it.

 

[The Clamp]

Definitely not. Equally I wouldn’t want paying for it.

Genuinely don’t understand what you mean here. Posties don’t want paying for it.

I think all anyone is arguing is that if you get rid of the Royal Mail postal service then you also eliminate the added benefit of having people in the community that know most people, at least to say hello to, and can and do spot when people are in trouble.

I dunno, that’s how I see it.

 

[The Seagull]

So do you want to pay them as untrained social workers or deliverers of letters ?

You know exactly what he means by “social service” you tool. Being a good person in other words when others will just walk on by.

 

[Brian Fantana]

So do you want to pay them as untrained social workers or deliverers of letters ?

I don't quite understand your objection to posties looking out for their customers whilst on their rounds. It is quite bizarre, really. But each to their own.

 

[Brian Fantana]

Genuinely don’t understand what you mean here. Posties don’t want paying for it.

I think all anyone is arguing is that if you get rid of the Royal Mail postal service then you also eliminate the added benefit of having people in the community that know most people, at least to say hello to, and can and do spot when people are in trouble.

I dunno, that’s how I see it.

Exactly.

The slightly nuanced view that I'm putting forward, as someone who works for the business, is that we need to achieve something that a) delivers some level of change to match the marketplace we now operate in and b) also retains that community role that posties play so brilliantly.

 

[The Clamp]

As an aside, being a person that works in social services, you’d be shocked how poorly trained and qualified some people are. In a lot of cases I’d trust a postie over some of the dingus’s I’ve worked with

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Genuinely don’t understand what you mean here. Posties don’t want paying for it.

I think all anyone is arguing is that if you get rid of the Royal Mail postal service then you also eliminate the added benefit of having people in the community that know most people, at least to say hello to, and can and do spot when people are in trouble.

I dunno, that’s how I see it.

I think the argument was a little more than that ie is a part of the reason their pay demand should be met. The problem is that the Royal Mail don’t have a contract for this service. If we are saying it has nothing to do with the ongoing dispute then I can’t work out why we are discussing a private sector pay dispute or why a left wing poster is getting so aeriated about it and ranting about the Government. It just seems a little disingenuous to bring up the untrained, intangible social service. If it’s just about posting letters then that is going to be a service difficult to justify given how few are actually posted anymore.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You know exactly what he means by “social service” you tool. Being a good person in other words when others will just walk on by.

You aren’t trained. You aren’t DBS checked. You can’t even engage in a grown up discussion without giving out insults. If you are representative of your company then you and your management deserve each other and us customers will continue to go elsewhere.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I don't quite understand your objection to posties looking out for their customers whilst on their rounds. It is quite bizarre, really. But each to their own.

I have never said I object. I look out for the kids I teach. I just don’t see its relevance in the current context. You didn’t come on NSC last year to make this point. You have only mentioned it now they are on strike.

 

[Brian Fantana]

You aren’t trained. You aren’t DBS checked. You can’t even engage in a grown up discussion without giving out insults. If you are representative of your company then you and your management deserve each other and us customers will continue to go elsewhere.

I'd like to think that as a member of the management, I've engaged in a grown up discussion with you and been civil, even when we've disagreed.

The reason that the unofficial social service argument is relevant is that one of the accusations that the CWU have made is that RM want to turn the employment model into a similar one to some of the other parcel companies, i.e. zero hours, paid by the number of parcels delivered etc (which is not something I believe they want to do - but that's probably an argumennt for another day). IF that happened, then it is highly likely that posties wouldn't be able to realistically continue checking on their customers in the same way they do now.

As I've said on this thread a few times, the market is very different - letters volumes have diminished rapidly over the past decade (except for a slight jump during Covid), whilst parcel volumes have steadily risen. The result of this is that the future of the postie probably won't involve going to the majority of houses every day, as they do currently. What I've been an advocate for, and will continue to be so, is that even if the role does change then we need to maintain the community-spirited attitude that posties have in wanting to be an important part of their community.