[Football] Robbie Savage is right about kids football

[Guinness Boy]

I took it to only be designed for the 5v5 to 9v9 age groups (see the blue card / sin bin rule, which supports that)

That's what we think / hope but I've searched for a distinction & can't find it anywhere. Many older kids are already in ability driven leagues - and I'm not sure how you'd stop a 15 year old slide tackling without instructions


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[hans kraay fan club]

That's what we think / hope but I've searched for a distinction & can't find it anywhere. Many older kids are already in ability driven leagues - and I'm not sure how you'd stop a 15 year old slide tackling without instructions

Those rules are published by the 'Manchester Respect Football League' which judging by their site, only runs up to U13:
http://www.respectleague.com/

 

[chaileyjem]

That's caused quite a bit of debate on our coaches and managers' chat at our club, by no means all of it positive. Do you know what age that goes up to? Is it under 16s or just the non table/results broadcast ages I.e. Up to and including under 11s?

I think there's a thought that much of it is sensible for minis but it's unworkable for teenagers. I'd probably agree.

Yes agreed. There's some progressive stuff here but its u10s only i think. - pass backs, retreat line, slide tackling for example - age related. Wouldn't work for older players.
Some of the parental / development stuff (silent matches, equal playing time, all positions, sin bins) could/should work at older ages though.

 

[chaileyjem]

I pay £150 for the season for my youngest, for his Youth football. He's U17 now, but price has been the same for each year.

That money goes to his club, and covers:

20 or so matches - the ref needs paying (£20ish) and the pitch needs paying for (£35ish)
30 or so evening 90 minute training sessions on 3G pitches, which need paying for.
15 or so additional training in public park
Full 'home' kit for matches.
Full 'away' kit for Training / kit clashes
Insurance
Club costs of admin / coaching courses / safeguarding courses
The club also uses some club funds to pay the £85 fee if any of the kids want to take the basic refereeing course, as a way of giving something back to the local leagues.
End of season trophies.

So far as I'm aware, apart from the cost of some of the courses club officials go on, nothing at all goes to the FA

thats pretty much it for both clubs and also non shirts/shorts kit like nets, line marking, paint, balls, bibs , and cones.. . And Remember that for many teams/clubs all the people involved (coaches, referees, fixtures secretaries, chairman, linesman, groundsmen !) are all volunteers.. There's also a league registration fee - in my clubs case - to the Sussex Sunday Youth League and to the Mid Sussex Youth League (we have teams in both). There's no "fee" to the FA though.
Most clubs also have to do a fair bit of fund raising or seek sponsorship to maintain clubhouses, kit like jackets/sweatshirts and pay for pitches / maintenance.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Some of the parental / development stuff (silent matches, equal playing time, all positions, sin bins) could/should work at older ages though.

On my level 1 course the example used for rotating positions was Dennis Bergkamp who played right back until about age 17 I think.

To be clear, though, objections to early viewings of those rules on older age groups were more around how enforceable they'd be in competitive leagues. Sin bin should work no problem, silent sideline would be a progression and pushed to the limit, equal playing time should be a given but would be abused by more competitive clubs I would think.


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[hans kraay fan club]

Yes agreed. There's some progressive stuff here but its u10s only i think. - pass backs, retreat line, slide tackling for example - age related. Wouldn't work for older players.
Some of the parental / development stuff (silent matches, equal playing time, all positions, sin bins) could/should work at older ages though.

With U15 / 16 / 17 in mind, I wouldn't be in favour of most of those. Silent matches really shouldn't be necessary, and IMO are not even a good thing - so long as only POSITIVE / ENCOURAGING things are being said - shout away. If I'm watching our lot, and I'm shouting 'great pass', 'good effort - unlucky' or 'heads up lads, you can get back in this', I'm only ever being positive. People shouting negative stuff are being dicks, but ban dicks, not shouting!

Beyond about U14 I wouldn't agree with forcing the kids to play all positions either - if a lad is enjoying his football, but is a big strong slow centre-back, who loves making a tackle and heading it away, there's no value to him or his team in forcing him to play 20 minutes on the left wing and 20 minutes in goal.

BUT, as a frequent, reluctant, unpaid referee I would absolutely LOVE to have recourse to use of a sin bin. It would really, really help, IMO. As a volunteer ref, without even the backing of an FA badge, I'd be hugely reluctant to send kids off, as I don't want to ruin their game unless utterly necessary and I don't want to deal with the shitstorm of paperwork and reporting that a red card requires. A five minute sin bin for me to make a necessary point, and for the player to cool down would be great.

 

[chaileyjem]

BUT, as a frequent, reluctant, unpaid referee I would absolutely LOVE to have recourse to use of a sin bin. It would really, really help, IMO. As a volunteer ref, without even the backing of an FA badge, I'd be hugely reluctant to send kids off, as I don't want to ruin their game unless utterly necessary and I don't want to deal with the shitstorm of paperwork and reporting that a red card requires. A five minute sin bin for me to make a necessary point, and for the player to cool down would be great.

I think you're right about extending much of these rules beyond 10 for some and 13/14 for most is not what they're designed for.
The Respect programme is designed for a lot of that.
PS: SIn Bins are being trialled in a number of leagues at the moment including a couple of Mid Sussex leagues so could be coming soon !.
http://www.thefa.com/news/2017/jul/14/sin-bins-trial-140717

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Certainly not a fan of the silent sidelines rule, nothing wrong with shouting encouragement imo. My son played rugby rather than football as a nipper, maybe it's different in football.

It smacks of not trusting parents/relatives to stay in control so spoiling the enjoyment of spectators and players alike. Polite clapping really isn't what football and rugger are about imo.

I get the principle of what you’re saying, but the reality really is a damning indictment of parents who often live vicariously through their children and, from my experience, treat referees appallingly which sets an awful example.

We want kids to enjoy the game and the standard of coaching has improved dramatically from when I was a nipper (I’m 32 now), but parents are often a big blockade to real footballing decelopement and enjoyment for a lot of children. And the worst thing is, from my experience, that they’ll usually admit as much to their coach (but be far too scared to tell their parents). Parents should be thinking “what actions on my part will lead to the most enjoyment and progress for my child”, not “I’m a spectator here, I can do what I like”, which is how your post comes across.

 

[macky]

With U15 / 16 / 17 in mind, I wouldn't be in favour of most of those. Silent matches really shouldn't be necessary, and IMO are not even a good thing - so long as only POSITIVE / ENCOURAGING things are being said - shout away. If I'm watching our lot, and I'm shouting 'great pass', 'good effort - unlucky' or 'heads up lads, you can get back in this', I'm only ever being positive. People shouting negative stuff are being dicks, but ban dicks, not shouting!

Beyond about U14 I wouldn't agree with forcing the kids to play all positions either - if a lad is enjoying his football, but is a big strong slow centre-back, who loves making a tackle and heading it away, there's no value to him or his team in forcing him to play 20 minutes on the left wing and 20 minutes in goal.

BUT, as a frequent, reluctant, unpaid referee I would absolutely LOVE to have recourse to use of a sin bin. It would really, really help, IMO. As a volunteer ref, without even the backing of an FA badge, I'd be hugely reluctant to send kids off, as I don't want to ruin their game unless utterly necessary and I don't want to deal with the shitstorm of paperwork and reporting that a red card requires. A five minute sin bin for me to make a necessary point, and for the player to cool down would be great.

They are using sin bins now 2 minutes I know because it happened last weekend at a game I was at in fact the retreating rule was used here a couple of seasons back as well

 

[BN9 BHA]

Not sure about the no instructions from the coaches rule.
Kids football won't be the same without someone bellowing from the sidelines-
" Don't dive in "
"You're walking "
"Wake up lads "

 

[Icy Gull]

I get the principle of what you’re saying, but the reality really is a damning indictment of parents who often live vicariously through their children and, from my experience, treat referees appallingly which sets an awful example.

We want kids to enjoy the game and the standard of coaching has improved dramatically from when I was a nipper (I’m 32 now), but parents are often a big blockade to real footballing decelopement and enjoyment for a lot of children. And the worst thing is, from my experience, that they’ll usually admit as much to their coach (but be far too scared to tell their parents). Parents should be thinking “what actions on my part will lead to the most enjoyment and progress for my child”, not “I’m a spectator here, I can do what I like”, which is how your post comes across.

It has to start with parents/those on the sidelines respecting the ref and also for the ref to be firm with ott spectators overstepping the mark. I get what you are saying completely but reigning in enthusiasm to polite applause, smacks of dumbing down rather than admonishing the minority who have big gobs and no respect. It cannot be easy for the ref to have to cope with some spectators, I accept. Shame, as I feel enthusiasm from the touchline is a part of watching

 

[Guinness Boy]

Not sure about the no instructions from the coaches rule.
Kids football won't be the same without someone bellowing from the sidelines-
" Don't dive in "
"You're walking "
"Wake up lads "

You've been to one of my games then

On a serious note it would only work if refs were as strict with parents as coaches.

A real life example. Last season was my son's first for his school team. There were a lot of new players & the teachers in charge of football club weren't confident football coaches. They roped me in as I'm level 1 qualified.

We agreed for the first match we'd set them very basic positions & instructions but largely let them get on with it and see how they went. This was fine until one defender's dad turned and stood behind the goal yelling at him. Of course the kid turned to look at him instead of the game - plus everything he was saying was wrong.

The parent got moved and a very public dressing down from the small, female year one teacher but not before we'd conceded 2 silly goals.


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[ferring seagull]

And yet these parks aren't free to play The team has to pay the council It's a disgrace

Is it really ?

If these facilites were completely free then Joe Bloggs and his sons/daughters could realistically turn up at a council maintained park (soccer pitch) and simply, by having their own little kick about, cause an annoyance to twenty two little players, their match officials and numerous parents. The Council, whichever one it is for what it is worth, employ staff whose job it is to come around and, season on season, cut the grass according to the sport, mark the lines be it football or cricket ( where the maintainance of the square is pretty intensive ) and ( in the case of more senior football ) assemble and dissemble goalposts at particular times of year !

What do users pay for a quarter size, half size or whatever size of marked pitch pay for the privelege of having sole usage of that facility ? I ask as I merely observe as a dog walker the daily involvement of council staff and their dedication to their tasks !

Surely it cant be unreasonable for organised 'mini' football to make some contribution to these costs in the same way that others pay for the use of a tennis, squash or badminton court, this when (say) 90% of the council tax paying residents do not or cannot make use of these ( public ) facilities.

 

[Pudos]

Certainly not a fan of the silent sidelines rule, nothing wrong with shouting encouragement imo. My son played rugby rather than football as a nipper, maybe it's different in football.

It smacks of not trusting parents/relatives to stay in control so spoiling the enjoyment of spectators and players alike. Polite clapping really isn't what football and rugger are about imo.

I see your point but after my many years of football coaching and reffing (stopped a few years ago) really don't think the two games compare at youth level. After a couple of years at local youth football my nephews all switched to Rugby. I watch them regularly (even tho i still never really understand the rules) - for their development physical, confidence, behavior, respect, Rugby has done so much. Way above anything football ever did, to them or any of the youth teams I was involved in - in any way. Without wishing to sound about 90 I believe much of this comes from the idiot and disrespectful behavior of many modern footballers.
Nothing is perfect but at Rugby I don't see parents slating the referee, verbally abusing the ref, shouting angrily at their own children for failing, arguing with other teams parents, slating the team manager for his tactics (even tho this is the person who gives his own time up - and a fair bit of it), standing too close to the line so as linesman you were forever having to move them back despite marked standing areas, slating every ref/lino decision. Of course the real expert Dads/Mums were the ones who would never run the line or help in any way!
Rugby is a game where parents seem to mix better and frequently after a game finishes teams sit for a meal. For child development it does far more away from the pitch as well.
I gave up assisting in all the areas of youth football after being near (other pitch) where a ref had part of his ear bitten off by a parent after a youth game.
Of course there are many good things from child/youth football - kids enjoying it is sometimes forgotten by parents. I still enjoy seeing some of the kids I coached etc in local town and many are really appreciative of what myself and others did to provide football for them. From what I frequently see now when seeing the kids football matches at local park I worry for the kids and the direction the game is going. Local teams advertising for younger players - not surprising.
Rant over - 5 years too late!

 

[drew]

I think some of the stuff is good but some of it is unnecessary. I manage my girls U14s and have done since they were U10s. I understand that there is far more respect in the girls game to the opposition by players and supporters and whilst there are competitive matches, there are many that aren't due to the scarcity of teams. We play as far as Rustington in the West, to Bexhill in the east, Horsham in the north and obviously Brighton in the south. In other words we have 12 teams in her age group across both East and West Sussex. It is not possible to arrange matches to be competitive unless you are just going to have the best teams play each other and the worse teams play each other.

What I think gets overlooked is the fact that, in the main, we volunteers are just trying to facilitate girls playing football. Some of them are very good and move on to the academies (one of our former U10s is now in the England regional squads and BHA U16s and is destined for even better) but the majority just enjoy playing. We coach them and try and improve them but with the best will in the world they aren't all going on to better things. What is important is that they enjoy the game and hopefully play on into adulthood. I suspect it is the same with boys, ie the better players should be moved on to academies and hopefully the rest will improve but more importantly enjoy it. There are thousands of adults who play on Saturday and Sunday and do so because they enjoy it, not because they genuinely believe they will get spotted and move into the professional game. Unfortunately, there are too many coaches that try to hang on to their good players rather than encourage them to go to the academies.

As for Macky's assertion that the youth game is in dire straits, I tend to disagree. Look at the results of the England youth teams recently. The effects of St Georges Park are trickling down. Where there is a problem is in volunteers. There are so many requirements now that it is making people think twice before getting involved. We struggle to get a referee because you're only allowed to use people that have been on the FA safeguarding course. In the past, we have had parents do the job.

 

[BN9 BHA]

You've been to one of my games then

On a serious note it would only work if refs were as strict with parents as coaches.

A real life example. Last season was my son's first for his school team. There were a lot of new players & the teachers in charge of football club weren't confident football coaches. They roped me in as I'm level 1 qualified.

We agreed for the first match we'd set them very basic positions & instructions but largely let them get on with it and see how they went. This was fine until one defender's dad turned and stood behind the goal yelling at him. Of course the kid turned to look at him instead of the game - plus everything he was saying was wrong.

The parent got moved and a very public dressing down from the small, female year one teacher but not before we'd conceded 2 silly goals.


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I have got three sons, one is still playing youth football ( u-14s ), nothing surprises me, I think I've seen and heard most things on a Sunday morning.

I must admit I'm not a shouting dad, I do find myself shaking my head at some of the mouthy dads and mums, some of them are embarrassing.
My 14 year old lad played in a team when he was 6, his team were playing at home one Sunday morning and a big loud bloke dressed like a wannabe gangster walked up along the touch line and shouted at no one in particular " They're not that good are they" I hadn't seen him before so I guessed he came with the away team.
Thankfully everyone ignored him and I didn't hear anything else from him.

 

[chaileyjem]

T


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[Deleted member 2719]

I have only seemed a couple of incidents of parents getting to involved, i am sure more goes on.
However some coaches are running their kids team with an iron fist and pressurising the boys and girl and what for there reputation as a manager
Fortunately we moved our son from one of these clubs that half time team talk would be " everyone is rubbish apart from Joe bloggs, you all need to be playing like him".

Yet there seems to be no way of stopping these self obsessed managers.

Luckily we have the best coaches that care for the kids DEVELOPMENT not their egos.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

T


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U

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[macky]

Is it really ?

If these facilites were completely free then Joe Bloggs and his sons/daughters could realistically turn up at a council maintained park (soccer pitch) and simply, by having their own little kick about, cause an annoyance to twenty two little players, their match officials and numerous parents. The Council, whichever one it is for what it is worth, employ staff whose job it is to come around and, season on season, cut the grass according to the sport, mark the lines be it football or cricket ( where the maintainance of the square is pretty intensive ) and ( in the case of more senior football ) assemble and dissemble goalposts at particular times of year !

What do users pay for a quarter size, half size or whatever size of marked pitch pay for the privelege of having sole usage of that facility ? I ask as I merely observe as a dog walker the daily involvement of council staff and their dedication to their tasks !

Surely it cant be unreasonable for organised 'mini' football to make some contribution to these costs in the same way that others pay for the use of a tennis, squash or badminton court, this when (say) 90% of the council tax paying residents do not or cannot make use of these ( public ) facilities.

I have heard of pitches where flints poke through the ground Every matchday pitches have to be checked for dogs droppings grass not cut for weeks Big pivots in the pitch which could cause serious injury A friend of mine nearly lost a leg through dog shit As the council charge a fee surely they have a duty to make the pitches a little be
tter than they are