[Albion] Record number of Premier League injuries this season

[dazzer6666]

I too think this analysis is plausible.

But it does make me think, are we over training the players then? Is there a point going for a marginal gain in athleticism if it increases the risk of a year long injury by a significant percentage?

Again, I think sports science has questions to answer

Possibly......I'm no expert (junior is somewhat and I've learned a lot from him and it's also led me to read around it a lot more - it's fascinating). All teams manage player 'loads' extremely carefully (and individually to set thresholds)- cumulative work over a period, including a detailed breakdown of what intensity that work has been undertaken at, physiological data is collected all the time etc etc but something clearly isn't working - the data across the whole PL looks a bit worrying. Also suspect the teams that are rotating less will suffer more as the season progresses. Maybe the 'perfect' pitches aren't helping either - too hard, more studs getting caught leading to knee/ankle trauma perhaps - bring back soft mud

 

[JBizzle]

You could well be right, but i'm still confused.

£100's of million are at stake at top level football. We're talking about players, bought for £10's of millions and paid £100's of K a week. They have access to knowledge from the best sports scientists in the world.

Surely part of the remit of the club medical / science staff is how best to keep players muscles not tense during breaks of play. We know breaks in play are likely.

If there's any suspicion that more breaks in play are leading to injuries why do we not see detailed routines taking place? It normally takes a stoppage of 5 to 10 mins before players stop just chatting to each other and start knocking a ball around.

The only possible conclusions I can draw is that the medical staff are being collectively negligent, the players just can't be bothered to do it, or the sports science suggests that it isn't the breaks in play which are responsible for an increase in injuries

We see his in all walks of life.

Increase the workload, increase the stress on the body, increase the mental pressure, increase the working hours and when if all falls apart who do we blame? The people who make those decisions? No, it's the people who have to keep up with and provide fixes for the increasing bat-sh*t "improvements".

The problem is, nobody at the very top really cares about player welfare. You have those in charge ramping up the number of games, the amount of travel and reducing recovery time, backed up vocally by the "They get paid a lot of money, why should they feel tired when I have to work a 70 hour week?" brigade.

The next World Cup in 2026 is across 3 countries (US, Canada and Mexico) and 16 host cities. You think that's bad? 2030 is across 6 countries and two continents in Morocco, Spain, Argentina, Portugal, Uruguay and Paraguay. Not sure medical science can be blamed for organising that insanity, but they sure as hell will have to work out how to deal with it.

On the underlined part, whilst I do tend to agree partially decisions and VAR checks take between 10 seconds and in some case 6-7 minutes. The length of delay is almost never communicated and as such difficult to build a routine to combat it.

 

[Sarisbury Seagull]

Possibly......I'm no expert (junior is somewhat and I've learned a lot from him and it's also led me to read around it a lot more - it's fascinating). All teams manage player 'loads' extremely carefully (and individually to set thresholds)- cumulative work over a period, including a detailed breakdown of what intensity that work has been undertaken at, physiological data is collected all the time etc etc but something clearly isn't working - the data across the whole PL looks a bit worrying. Also suspect the teams that are rotating less will suffer more as the season progresses. Maybe the 'perfect' pitches aren't helping either - too hard, more studs getting caught leading to knee/ankle trauma perhaps - bring back soft mud

I know a very little bit about sports science but have friends who are sports scientists who obviously know a lot more and as a coach, I talk to them about this.

I’ve said it elsewhere on here a number of times but I firmly believe players are playing too much football these days and these injuries will only get worse. Sports science has obviously moved on a lot in recent years which has contributed to the atheleticism of players improving exponentially but the ‘game’ has not changed and developed in line with this so authorities, leagues, clubs and TV companies are expecting players to do what they’ve always done and more which is just not possible for their bodies with the intensity they play at nowadays.

There’s an excellent piece on The Athletic today about the current state of PL injuries. Hamstring injuries are up 96% on last season!

Naylor also confirms in the piece that March suffered a ruptured ACL and meniscus damage.

 

[Machiavelli]

I know a very little bit about sports science but have friends who are sports scientists who obviously know a lot more and as a coach, I talk to them about this.

I’ve said it elsewhere on here a number of times but I firmly believe players are playing too much football these days and these injuries will only get worse. Sports science has obviously moved on a lot in recent years which has contributed to the atheleticism of players improving exponentially but the ‘game’ has not changed and developed in line with this so authorities, leagues, clubs and TV companies are expecting players to do what they’ve always done and more which is just not possible for their bodies with the intensity they play at nowadays.

There’s an excellent piece on The Athletic today about the current state of PL injuries. Hamstring injuries are up 96% on last season!

Naylor also confirms in the piece that March suffered a ruptured ACL and meniscus damage.

Thanks for the confirmation on March. It all pointed to an ACL, but this is the first reputable indication of it.
Potentially this also comes from a recent Naylor article (or tweet): Welbeck's injury is hamstring and his return is currently scheduled for January -- can you verify this?

 

[Hamilton]

I think this is correct. Elite players are now so well conditioned means that soft-tissue injuries are more common because players have such powerful muscles.

Doesn't surprise me that we've got the average number of injuries. Where we seem to have been a bit unfortunate is that 4 of those injuries have been to players that play left back!

Agree. It's why rugby is becoming so problematic now. We've trained up these beasts that are made of iron and run the 100m in 10 seconds! And that's just the front row.

 

[Sarisbury Seagull]

Thanks for the confirmation on March. It all pointed to an ACL, but this is the first reputable indication of it.
Potentially this also comes from a recent Naylor article (or tweet): Welbeck's injury is hamstring and his return is currently scheduled for January -- can you verify this?

According to the same Naylor piece both Welbeck and Enciso are unlikely to return before January which is really disappponting as was hoping Enciso would be back in early December as per previous reports.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Agree. It's why rugby is becoming so problematic now. We've trained up these beasts that are made of iron and run the 100m in 10 seconds! And that's just the front row.

Not a great Rugby fan, only ever watching 6 Nations, WC etc, but I believe that the size and power of the players now means there will have to be changes to the rules as they are unrecognisable from Rugby players of even 20 years ago. Football definitely needs to look at off season and the number of games played urgently as these problems aren't going to go away

 

[nwgull]

Not a great Rugby fan, only ever watching 6 Nations, WC etc, but I believe that the size and power of the players now means there will have to be changes to the rules as they are unrecognisable from Rugby players of even 20 years ago. Football definitely needs to look at off season and the number of games played urgently as these problems aren't going to go away

Ironically, the changes they have made over the last 20 odd years mean that you get more big hits outside of the set scrum, ruck or maul.

 

[ElectricNaz]

VAR Breaks must play an impact.

We do rolling subs in 11s, and even after 5 minutes off the pitch I feel like I'm done in terms of hamstring about to ping should I come back on. To the point where i've asked that if I go off, just take me off after 65 mins and don't bring me on again (as opposed to come off after 30 and come back on 2nd half). I feel like it's dangerous to go off and then come back on again / stop and then go again

 

[Zeberdi]

The only possible conclusions I can draw is that the medical staff are being collectively negligent, the players just can't be bothered to do it, or the sports science suggests that it isn't the breaks in play which are responsible for an increase in injuries

I would suggest there is an element of all three in there somewhere - the extended extra time and VAR hold-ups in play was just one point I made out of many - increase in international fixtures, domestic fixtures piling up to accommodate them and players simply playing a faster more energy expensive style of football. Clubs have not been as vocal as they should be imo in demanding a less crowded season/less ‘friendlies’ and coaches, physio and other support staff also need rely to some extent on players being totally honest about their pain and fatigue levels - perhaps that is not always forthcoming given the competition for places as squads get deeper to accommodate international competitions.

Maybe too the style of PL football has been changing -in the past few years ( at least for us) more end to end counterattacking - more players involved in multiple positions during the course of one match - perhaps that might have an impact?

Another possibility- very young players and senior players both more at risk - has Brexit also made a difference where academy players and older PL players are being used more than they used to be under new tougher foreign transfer rules?

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I would suggest there is an element of all three in there somewhere - the extended extra time and VAR hold-ups in play was just one point I made out of many - increase in international fixtures, domestic fixtures piling up to accommodate them and players simply playing a faster more energy expensive style of football. Clubs have not been as vocal as they should be imo in demanding a less crowded season/less ‘friendlies’ and coaches, physio and other support staff also need rely on players being totally honest about their pain and fatigue levels - perhaps that is not always forthcoming.

Maybe too the style of PL football has been changing -in the past few years ( at least for us) more end to end counterattacking - more players involved in multiple positions during the course of one match - perhaps that might have an impact?

Yeh, there has to be something.

We were getting fewer injuries when we were training on waterlogged university pitches, playing clogger sides from up north every Tuesday and Saturday in a Withdean sandpit with the most sophisticated sports science coming from one of Charlie Oatway's half time motivational talks.

 

[albion534]

Players don’t really have much of a rest do they, pre season they’re travelling the world and playing friendlies in other countries to enhance the brand, plus international matches. It’s too much

 

[Zeberdi]

Players don’t really have much of a rest do they, pre season they’re travelling the world and playing friendlies in other countries to enhance the brand, plus international matches. It’s too much

Congestion of the calendar is getting ridiculous tbh as mentioned above and in the report @Guinness Boy posted;

PFA CEO Maheta Molango

PFA chief Maheta Molango concerned by 'overcrowded calendar'

PFA chief executive Maheta Molango expressed his concerns over an 'overcrowded football calendar' after FIFA announced their decision to grow the World cup from 64 to 104 matches.

www.skysports.com

 

[Zeberdi]

-- the VAR breaks are causing long pauses but, then again, they've been doing so for a few seasons, so there's not much difference there ...

I'm not slow to put the blame on VAR for stuff, but surely breaks in the game reduces the intensity. So although the games may be longer the effect of very concentrated extreme exertion is reduced. In practice, it gives the players a chance to take on fluids, do a stretch or two and gives a little thinking and communication time for if they do have a twinge they are struggling with.

It surely should be reducing not increasing the injuries

Just to reiterate my earlier post re VAR, I can’t find much to back of my assertion but Molango has said much the same thing recently after the stoppages we saw in that chaotic and ridiculous game a few weeks ago (6 Nov) where Spurs played Chelsea - 5 goals ruled out, 9 VAR checks and nearly 10 mins extra time with Spurs down to 9 men:

”Intuitively I would say yes - that the stoppages like we saw on Monday will lead to injuries because players cooled down and then have to sprint straight away …Player welfare should be a big issue. But we are killing the product at the moment and that should be everybody’s biggest fear.”

PFA chief claims VAR may be to blame for ongoing Premier League injury crisis

More than 30 players will miss this weekend's fixtures owing to hamstring problems alone, prompting fears that lengthy delays during games is a factor

www.mirror.co.uk

Maybe too the style of PL football has been changing -in the past few years ( at least for us) more end to end counterattacking - more players involved in multiple positions during the course of one match - perhaps that might have an impact

Just as a correlation (sorry to quote myself ) with the change of the style of football being played at elite level, the risk of high sprint training has also resulted in increased risk according to some sports scientists - the recovery time required is not only related to fixture schedule but speed and intensity of training players are made to undertake prior to next match - of course there is also increased risk of injury if players go into next match with inadequate levels of training in the interim:


“Owen et al.recently reported that greater training time spent above 85% HRmax resulted in increased injury risk for players in subsequent match-play and training sessions. However, these results need to be contextualised given the known relationships between increased fitness and reduced injury risk for team sport player. Clearly, there is a requirement for coaches to prescribe an appropriate training load to increase players’ fitness to protect from subsequent risk.”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1440244017304425

 

[dazzer6666]

Just to reiterate my earlier post re VAR, I can’t find much to back of my assertion but Molango has said much the same thing recently after the stoppages we saw in that chaotic and ridiculous game a few weeks ago (6 Nov) where Spurs played Chelsea - 5 goals ruled out, 9 VAR checks and nearly 10 mins extra time with Spurs down to 9 men:

”Intuitively I would say yes - that the stoppages like we saw on Monday will lead to injuries because players cooled down and then have to sprint straight away …Player welfare should be a big issue. But we are killing the product at the moment and that should be everybody’s biggest fear.”

PFA chief claims VAR may be to blame for ongoing Premier League injury crisis

More than 30 players will miss this weekend's fixtures owing to hamstring problems alone, prompting fears that lengthy delays during games is a factor

www.mirror.co.uk

Just as a correlation (sorry to quote myself ) with the change of the style of football being played at elite level, the risk of high sprint training has also resulted in increased risk according to some sports scientists - the recovery time required is not only related to fixture schedule but speed and intensity of training players are made to undertake prior to next match - of course there is also increased risk of injury if players go into next match with inadequate levels of training in the interim:


“Owen et al.recently reported that greater training time spent above 85% HRmax resulted in increased injury risk for players in subsequent match-play and training sessions. However, these results need to be contextualised given the known relationships between increased fitness and reduced injury risk for team sport player. Clearly, there is a requirement for coaches to prescribe an appropriate training load to increase players’ fitness to protect from subsequent risk.”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1440244017304425

That’s what I was alluding to in #21…….too high a % of a player’s work may now be at high intensity, and without adequate recovery time etc. The S&C guys have all the data in the world on this, but the need to keep winning is perhaps over-riding player welfare to some extent. I know from years of marathon/ultra training a high % of weekly mileage needs to be at low intensity to avoid injury and overtaxing endocrine systems…….

 

[Zeberdi]

That’s what I was alluding to in #21…….too high a % of a player’s work may now be at high intensity, and without adequate recovery time etc. The S&C guys have all the data in the world on this, but the need to keep winning is perhaps over-riding player welfare to some extent.

- if you had read my post #3, you’d see that I also said all of what is mentioned in the report and your points above on the Ferguson thread a few days ago - so we agree

I know from years of marathon/ultra training a high % of weekly mileage needs to be at low intensity to avoid injury and overtaxing endocrine systems…….

That doesn’t apply to training for a football match though - with marathon running, it is a solo sport which is run at a comparative snail pace compared to an elite football match. Training for a marathon doesn’t involve intense periods of High Level sprinting (at least it didn‘t with the marathon runners I use to train a bit with)- the article I posted above, specifically refers to the risk of injury from High Sprint training (which is necessary for PL match readiness) - it’s the speed that carries the increased risk of injury but I have no idea how you begin to address this without thinning out the season’s packed schedule - more intense training requires it’s own recovery time.

Maybe @WATFORD zero is right - sack the dieticians and Club/personal chefs and let the players go back to stopping off for chicken in a basket and chips on the way home from an away game

Also suspect the teams that are rotating less will suffer more as the season progresses

This is also an interesting aspect that maybe could be argued either way - a player that only has 15-20 minutes match time every fortnight is potentially more exposed to risk than as a player used to doing 90 mins regularly. Years ago as my Dad got older, he was beginning to struggle with his fortnightly Squash games at Withdean - he was worried he would have to give it up - I suggested playing more frequently for shorter periods than a long game once a fortnight so he started playing weekly and for a shorter length of time - he managed to keep that weekly Squash up for 5 more years until he developed cancer. Sometimes, more not less is better.

 

[WATFORD zero]

- if you had read my post #3, you’d see that I also said all of what is mentioned in the report and your points on the Ferguson thread a few days ago - so we agree


That doesn’t apply to training for a football match though - with marathon running, it is a solo sport which is run at a comparative snail pace compared to an elite football match. Training for a marathon doesn’t involve intense periods of High Level sprinting (at least it didn‘t with the marathon runners I use to train a bit with)- the article I posted above, specifically refers to the risk of injury from High Sprint training (which is necessary for PL match readiness) - it’s the speed that carries the increased risk of injury but I have no idea how you begin to address this without thinning out the season’s packed schedule - more intense training requires it’s own recovery time.

Maybe @WATFORD zero is right - sack the dieticians and Club/personal chefs and let the players go back to stopping off for chicken in a basket and chips on the way home from an away game

Anyone who can't sink 3 pints followed by at least 5 reds and 5 coloureds on a midweek afternoon shouldn't even be considered for the starting 11 on a Saturday

 

[dazzer6666]

- if you had read my post #3, you’d see that I also said all of what is mentioned in the report and your points above on the Ferguson thread a few days ago - so we agree


That doesn’t apply to training for a football match though - with marathon running, it is a solo sport which is run at a comparative snail pace compared to an elite football match. Training for a marathon doesn’t involve intense periods of High Level sprinting (at least it didn‘t with the marathon runners I use to train a bit with)- the article I posted above, specifically refers to the risk of injury from High Sprint training (which is necessary for PL match readiness) - it’s the speed that carries the increased risk of injury but I have no idea how you begin to address this without thinning out the season’s packed schedule - more intense training requires it’s own recovery time.

Maybe @WATFORD zero is right - sack the dieticians and Club/personal chefs and let the players go back to stopping off for chicken in a basket and chips on the way home from an away game

I know, but the point I was making even from my crap training is that too much high intensity training is far more likely to lead to injury. My track, 5 and 10k speedy running pals typically also did something like 80% of their training at maybe 60% intensity, with much shorter fast sessions that were well spaced out. Incidentally (according to the coach I used to have anyway who really knows his stuff), a typical marathon or ultra training schedule will have some much faster stuff in it (again, 20% or less), always followed by easy/recovery stuff or rest.

 

[Zeberdi]

I know, but the point I was making even from my crap training is that too much high intensity training is far more likely to lead to injury.

Then we’ve been making the same point

(I was a County swimmer from 12 years to 17 yrs both distance and sprint and the training was as you say, high intense high speed on evening for 90 mins then 2 hours distance swimming primarily 4 mornings a week - over the course of the week, the two approaches complimented each other - only injury I ever got was swimming backwards into the end of the pool and nearly knocking myself out )

 

[AlbionBro]

Not sure Milner's injury was much to do with his pace...

Typical old boy still thinks he quick....ish ! Come on, I bet you have been there!