Rant du jour: China are a disgrace

[Buzzer]

Go and read marx and engels first before making stupid statements like that.

But I have. Tedious read it was too, but I have.

Why is it you socialists seem to think that nyone who disagrees with Marx can't have ever read him. It's called an opinion. I'm allowed to have one and express it. A freedom so valuable that socialist states seem to want to censor it.

 

[Gwylan]

I think Paris tried something similar but it made things WORSE because people bought an old banger with a different registration plate to their main car so they could still drive during that month...

It was Athens.

Why has everyone just woken up to the fact that China is a nasty dictatorship? Doesn't anyone remember Tianamen Square? However, Buzzer is wide of the mark describing it as communist - it's rigorously capitalist these days. Which is why the world and his dog rushes to do business there and which is precisely why it was handed the Olympic Games.

And since when it has been essential for the Olympics to go to a flourishing democracy? It's been hosted by Hitler's Berlin and Brezhnev's Moscow in the past.

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

You're a f***ing rude knobber at times.

I've never claimed to like global capitalism, I've never claimed to be an authority on it. Please show me where I've professed either.

Sweat shops existed centuries before global capitalism. They've always existed and probably always will. Socialist Russia had them, socialist China had them way before Nike and Gap were there. You knew that already though but you're just blaming global capitalism without even understanding what you mean by that.

Your logic is also flawed and dangerous.

Global capitalism creates sweatshops. I like global capitalism ergo....

If you want a debate then let's debate but if you're going to be a twat then f*** off.

buz, you ARE a capitalist. whether or not you actually control means of production is neither here nor there, you do advocate capitalist principles over socialist. your avatar is richard nixon, for god's sake. global capitalism is just the (il)logical conclusion of the free market.

i said you were an authority because you seem to know what you're talking about on the subject. i was trying to pay you a compliment. don't be so defensive.

capitalism is all about efficiency, and maximising profits. two great ways of doing this are industrialising production, and decreasing labour costs. what have we got? sweatshops.

no twattism intended.

your move.

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

And since when it has been essential for the Olympics to go to a flourishing democracy? It's been hosted by Hitler's Berlin and Brezhnev's Moscow in the past.

it amazes me when people expect any kind of moral integrity from sporting bodies.

 

[Trufflehound]

Go and read marx .... first before making stupid statements like that.

I've read "Memoirs of a Mangy Lover", and don't remember socialism being mentioned.

 

[Buzzer]

What you're arguing against, and what the Chinese are doing are two separate things.

And why do you think Marx only wanted to reduce all classes (save the proletariat) by 10%?

no. I'm not Al. The chinese created a society where all means of production were controlled centrally. Big thumbs up from Marx there.

Society existed with only one class (really there was 2 as the party elite formed the upper class but so small in number) for nearly one billion people. Big thumbs up from Marx. This was EXACTLY what he was trying to create. THis was his goal. Reduction was a means to an end. Do you really think he wanted to keep any capitalist landowners at all? Why would he? For sentimental reasons.

Political education from a very early age. This was something Marx was very keen on. To him, man was a political animal. He also favoured re-education, by force if necessary of dissidents. There's a wonderful line in the communist manifesto with something about seeking to influence education away from that imposed by the ruling classes.

Christians take a lot of shit by what is done in their name (quite rightly at times too).

It's time you socialists acknowledged that the same thing could be said of your beloved socialism. No more of this "oh, it's never really been tried. Oh it's not REALL Y socialism." bollocks.

Let's see a few more anti-capitalists demonstrating against Castros treatment of dissident politicians or Chavez's attempts to make him leader for life or whatever fuckup Mugabe's dreamt up for his country and thhen I'd believe you lot a bit more.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

I've read "Memoirs of a Mangy Lover", and don't remember socialism being mentioned.

wasn't there a bit about chains ?

 

[Trufflehound]

It was Athens.

... it's rigorously capitalist these days. Which is why the world and his dog rushes to do business there and which is precisely why it was handed the Olympic Games.

I still remember visiting in 1993 and even back then all the so-called socialist sloganeering had already been replaced by giant banners proclaiming "Praise profit!"

By coincidence, my visit also coincided with Beijing's previous attempt to get the games, when they lost out to Sydney despite smugly assuming they were a shoo-in - oh what a laugh we had that night when the decision was announced.

I still have a T-shirt I bought on that visit which says: "Beiging has won bid for 2000 Olgmpis Gaines." (sic)

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

There's a wonderful line in the communist manifesto with something about seeking to influence education away from that imposed by the ruling classes.

It's time you socialists acknowledged that the same thing could be said of your beloved socialism.

emphasis added.

 

[Trufflehound]

wasn't there a bit about chains ?

You may be thinking of "Harpo Speaks!"

 

[Buzzer]

emphasis added.

I don't see great debates in the papers or on the web by socialists demanding to take their -ism back from the countries that are claiming it incorrectly.

When you start talking about capitalism being the enemy of the working man and the solution being control of the means of production by a central committee then socialism, communism, marxism, whatever ism. You're essentially the same.

 

[The Large One]

no. I'm not Al. The chinese created a society where all means of production were controlled centrally. Big thumbs up from Marx there.

Society existed with only one class (really there was 2 as the party elite formed the upper class but so small in number) for nearly one billion people. Big thumbs up from Marx. This was EXACTLY what he was trying to create. THis was his goal. Reduction was a means to an end. Do you really think he wanted to keep any capitalist landowners at all? Why would he? For sentimental reasons.

Political education from a very early age. This was something Marx was very keen on. To him, man was a political animal. He also favoured re-education, by force if necessary of dissidents. There's a wonderful line in the communist manifesto with something about seeking to influence education away from that imposed by the ruling classes.

Christians take a lot of shit by what is done in their name (quite rightly at times too).

It's time you socialists acknowledged that the same thing could be said of your beloved socialism. No more of this "oh, it's never really been tried. Oh it's not REALL Y socialism." bollocks.

Let's see a few more anti-capitalists demonstrating against Castros treatment of dissident politicians or Chavez's attempts to make him leader for life or whatever fuckup Mugabe's dreamt up for his country and thhen I'd believe you lot a bit more.

But much of what you're talking about there was just as prevelant in Hitler's Germany or Mussolini's Italy. Central production, political re-education, state control of all facilities.

In other words, you're making out that social and political repression is the sole preserve of the left.

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

When you start talking about capitalism being the enemy of the working man and the solution being control of the means of production by a central committee then socialism, communism, marxism, whatever ism. You're essentially the same.

no.

socialism: some control over the means of production
communism: total control over the means of production.

socialism: some redistribution of wealth
communism: total redistribution of wealth.

socialism: equality of opportunity
communism: equality of outcome.

i know you know these differences, which makes me wonder why you (and indeed anyone, but the articulate in particular) are so opposed to a more just society.

communism cannot work. socialism has not worked.

 

[Simster]

Oddly enough I've been eating a MANDARIN flavoured Muller Lite yoghurt whilst reading this thread.


Sorry, carry on.

 

[Buzzer]

But much of what you're talking about there was just as prevelant in Hitler's Germany or Mussolini's Italy. Central production, political re-education, state control of all facilities.

In other words, you're making out that social and political repression is the sole preserve of the left.

not at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Lefties and anti-capitalists are forever up in arms about atrocities committed by Pinochet, Hitler and apartheid South Africa and conveniently ignoring exactly the same things happening elsewhere. They protested outside the Chilean and South African embassies. Why aren't Schnews and the crusties running buses outside the Chinese, North Korean, Zimbabwean embassies.

Time for socialists to reclaim their -ism if they really are serious about equality.

 

[The Large One]

not at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Lefties and anti-capitalists are forever up in arms about atrocities committed by Pinochet, Hitler and apartheid South Africa and conveniently ignoring exactly the same things happening elsewhere. They protested outside the Chilean and South African embassies. Why aren't Schnews and the crusties running buses outside the Chinese, North Korean, Zimbabwean embassies.

Time for socialists to reclaim their -ism if they really are serious about equality.

Cos they're not very bright people. But then, I also wouldn't associate Schnews with socialism either.

You might. I don't.

 

[Trufflehound]

Oddly enough I've been eating a MANDARIN flavoured Muller Lite yoghurt whilst reading this thread.


Sorry, carry on.

I can play CHOPSTICKS on the piano - does that count?

 

[CHAPPERS]

Oddly enough I've been eating a MANDARIN flavoured Muller Lite yoghurt whilst reading this thread.


Sorry, carry on.

Are you secretly wishing it was a Chocolate Mousse?

 

[Tooting Gull]

I can play CHOPSTICKS on the piano - does that count?

I've been pumping myself full of steroids and winning swimming and marathon races. Does that count?

 

[Trufflehound]

I've been pumping myself full of steroids and winning swimming and marathon races. Does that count?

Apparently yes, if you don't get caught.