Public 'Service' Unions to go on strike.

[drew]

Average income per capita in the UK = $24,486
Average income per capita in India = $441

But never let facts get in the way of your prejudice.

As subsequently stated by others, this is a nation that has a nuclear weapons and space programme.

So you think there's a direct link between teachers conditions and how well they teach our children ? If that's really the case then those teachers shouldn't be teaching but I suspect nearly all teachers are a bit more professional than that.

Personally I've seen my pension pot shrink and I'm a private sector worker. I have to decide whether to pay in more, work longer or have a smaller pension or even all three. My pension is self funding without injections of tax payers cash. Public sector pensions should be the same so if the schemes need more money it should come from the members.

There are many private sector firms that contribute to their employees pension pot. Are you saying that because your employer (assuming you aren't self employed) doesn't then nobody else should be allowed to. Sounds like a case of lets bring everything down to the lowest common denominator.

If "EVERYONE" is educated to a high standard it will be worthless? I'm not sure I really follow this.

I think it is a case of the value is reduced if everyone has the same standard in relation to the job market. Irrespective of that, a high standard of education should be an aspiration of everyone. For example, if everyone had a first class honors degree in quantum physics then it isn't going to make it easier to get employment in that field however, it will make the conversations in the pub a little bit more high brow.

The PCS ballot result is hardly a ringing endorsement for strike action. 60% voted in favour on a 32% turn out. So less than 1 in five members voted in favour of a strike.

You can also argue that 4 out of 5 are prepared to accept the vote whichever way it went. If they were against a strike they would have voted as such.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Average income per capita in the UK = $24,486
Average income per capita in India = $441

But never let facts get in the way of your prejudice.

I am in no way saying that we should not help the weakest in our world, however:

The IAF is one of the world's largest military force, with roughly 1.32 million active standing army and 2.14 million reserve forces thus giving India the third-largest active troops in the world as of 2006[1][4] after the People's Liberation Army and US Armed Forces.[5] Auxiliary services include the Indian Coast Guard, the Central Paramilitary Forces (CPF) and the Strategic Forces Command. India's official defense budget stands at US$36.03 billion for FY2011 (or 1.83% of GDP)[2] but the actual spending on the armed forces is estimated to be much higher than that.[6] Undergoing rapid expansion and modernization,[7] the Indian Armed Forces plans to have an active military space program[8] and is currently developing a missile defense shield[9] and nuclear triad capability. The Armed Forces of India possess nuclear weapons and operate short and intermediate-range ballistic missiles as well as nuclear-capable aircraft, and naval vessels. India is the world's largest arms importer accounting for 9% of all global imports and ranks among the top thirty in arms export.[10] Currently, India imports close to 70% of its weapons requirements, with Israel, Russia and the United States as its top military suppliers.[11][12][13] The country’s defence expenditure will be around US$112 billion by 2016.[14][15][16]

If we are saying that we should spend money helping those weakest, when they are estimated to be spending $112billion, then perhaps in this case, we should review ?

 

[Albion 4ever]

I'm normally quite sympathetic with public workers, especially as none of the economic mess we find ourselves in is of their making, but if they are striking over pensions then they can jog on.

You don't need a degree in economics to see that pension reform is absolute necessity. We had relatives who retired on final salary teacher pensions at 55. One was 85 when she died, her husband is still around at the same age. That is thirty years that the pension company has paid out. And nowadays the situation is even more urgent. For example, being 60 something is not the same pipe and slippers caper that it was 20 years ago. My dad is 66, and plays on the trampoline with his grandkids, and over the past 5 years has cycled the banks of the Nile, the Great Wall of China and run the great Northern run. On the other hand, his two uncles and dad (my grandpa) had all died by his age.

People need to accept that an aging population needs to pay for itself - and that means working for longer. Retirement age should be 70, IMO, maybe even 71 or 72.

Working until 70 might be ok if you are sitting behind a desk on a computer all day, but think about it - Can a 70 year old teach dynamic and active lessons to children? Can a 70 year old policeman chase after and arrest an 18 year old youth? Can a 70 year old fireman climb a ladder a fight a fire? At a certain age, in certain occupations, you cease to be effective and should be allowed to retire.

 

[El Presidente]

I think a space programme is fair enough as that is an infrastructural investment, but we shouldn't be subsidising *any* nation with a nuclear arsenal IMO.

I think that is a good point, however if they were to cut back on nuclear spending (much of it on goods imported from the UK) and instead increase conventional military expenditure would it make things much different?

The foreign aid budget is an emotive one, but it is helping people in far worse suffering than is experienced here on a general basis. If the UK government had given more millions to Southern Cross for elderly care all that would have happened is that banks and lenders would be even richer than they are currently.

 

[El Presidente]

If we are saying that we should spend money helping those weakest, when they are estimated to be spending $112billion, then perhaps in this case, we should review ?

I think India is a beneficiary of foreign aid due to it's historical ties with the UK. Defence spending globally is obscene, and is no better there than here.

 

[Dave the OAP]

personally I would stop sending cash, I would target aid based on need, very much like ( and I never thought I would say this) the coalition view on vaccination.

I do also know that aid is also loan guarantees, BUT it cant be right that we give aid in cash which is syphoned off to the ruling classes, ie new Mercs etc

 

[simmo]

I'm normally quite sympathetic with public workers, especially as none of the economic mess we find ourselves in is of their making, but if they are striking over pensions then they can jog on.

You don't need a degree in economics to see that pension reform is absolute necessity. We had relatives who retired on final salary teacher pensions at 55. One was 85 when she died, her husband is still around at the same age. That is thirty years that the pension company has paid out. And nowadays the situation is even more urgent. For example, being 60 something is not the same pipe and slippers caper that it was 20 years ago. My dad is 66, and plays on the trampoline with his grandkids, and over the past 5 years has cycled the banks of the Nile, the Great Wall of China and run the great Northern run. On the other hand, his two uncles and dad (my grandpa) had all died by his age.

People need to accept that an aging population needs to pay for itself - and that means working for longer. Retirement age should be 70, IMO, maybe even 71 or 72.

Agreed, I have heard the reason why the pension age (for a man) is 65, is that when it first came in the 1920's? the average life expectancy of a man was 66! 1 year of retirement and off you die was the plan. No real expense there.

What off course has massively changed in the last 90 or so years is medical advancement, diet and general health care and to be quite honest I believe that a child born now could on average expect to live to 100 what with the advancements I am sure will come in the future.

It is feasible that anyone lucky enough to retire at 55 today may spend half of their lives in retirement i.e they die at 110 (people reach 110 now, in 50 years if advancements continue at the pace they are this will be so much higher). This cannot be financially sustainable and unfortunately for all of us in the private or public sector the retirement age must go up.

 

[User removed 4]

I think India is a beneficiary of foreign aid due to it's historical ties with the UK. Defence spending globally is obscene, and is no better there than here.

5 or 6 posts in and still no mention of Tits/Porn etc ?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

personally I would stop sending cash, I would target aid based on need, very much like ( and I never thought I would say this) the coalition view on vaccination.

I do also know that aid is also loan guarantees, BUT it cant be right that we give aid in cash which is syphoned off to the ruling classes, ie new Mercs etc

I think it's Audi these days. I was reading recently that they're having record sales....if only WE could make something then we could have some money from these developing nations as well. But oh no, we just continue to peddle financial services and high street tat.

 

[withdeanwombat]

I know some folk will pick out individual high earners in public sector,but generally pay is poorish and the payback for this has been better pensions,and terms and conditions generally.Nobody particularly likes strikes.Nobody particularly likes striking.It's not a "ooh,lets have a strike today" decision.To the strikers the issues are often painfully clear.To outsiders it's "bloody strikers".

Fair enough,if the government wants to jump on a populist issue - the greed and inefficiency of public services etc - then accept that the majority of jobs are underpaid.Raise the pay and lower the pension if you want people to have choice;but don't choose easy Daily Mail targets that have some people banging on about things they do not understand.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

I know some folk will pick out individual high earners in public sector,but generally pay is poorish and the payback for this has been better pensions,and terms and conditions generally.Nobody particularly likes strikes.Nobody particularly likes striking.It's not a "ooh,lets have a strike today" decision.To the strikers the issues are often painfully clear.To outsiders it's "bloody strikers".

Fair enough,if the government wants to jump on a populist issue - the greed and inefficiency of public services etc - then accept that the majority of jobs are underpaid.Raise the pay and lower the pension if you want people to have choice;but don't choose easy Daily Mail targets that have some people banging on about things they do not understand.

Afraid though that isn't true. Quite often public sector workers at all levels are paid more than private sector colleagues. Not universal though. It happens most in the North where public sector wages are often set nationally but private sector wages are much lower than in the south

 

[Simster]

I know some folk will pick out individual high earners in public sector,but generally pay is poorish and the payback for this has been better pensions,and terms and conditions generally.Nobody particularly likes strikes.Nobody particularly likes striking.It's not a "ooh,lets have a strike today" decision.To the strikers the issues are often painfully clear.To outsiders it's "bloody strikers".

Fair enough,if the government wants to jump on a populist issue - the greed and inefficiency of public services etc - then accept that the majority of jobs are underpaid.Raise the pay and lower the pension if you want people to have choice;but don't choose easy Daily Mail targets that have some people banging on about things they do not understand.

I've gone on record on NSC only last week making it clear that I simply have no idea to what extent inefficiences, overpayment and underpayment are prevalent in the public sector. However, to me the pensions issue is quite clear - there needs to be reform across the board.

 

[Simster]

Working until 70 might be ok if you are sitting behind a desk on a computer all day, but think about it - Can a 70 year old teach dynamic and active lessons to children? Can a 70 year old policeman chase after and arrest an 18 year old youth? Can a 70 year old fireman climb a ladder a fight a fire? At a certain age, in certain occupations, you cease to be effective and should be allowed to retire.

You can't play professional football beyond the age of 40. Maybe they should be allowed to retire at 40 then?

 

[beorhthelm]

Fair enough,if the government wants to jump on a populist issue - the greed and inefficiency of public services etc - then accept that the majority of jobs are underpaid.Raise the pay and lower the pension if you want people to have choice;but don't choose easy Daily Mail targets that have some people banging on about things they do not understand.

i'd love to see the unions reaction to the public sector their pensions cut to levels found in the private sector, even with an exact % pay increase to balance.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

You can't play professional football beyond the age of 40. Maybe they should be allowed to retire at 40 then?

Aren't footballer's pension schemes designed to allow a pension to be taken around this age, whereas the majoriy of the population are generally stuck with 55?

 

[bhaexpress]

Average income per capita in the UK = $24,486
Average income per capita in India = $441

But never let facts get in the way of your prejudice.

Oh dear, here we go, the usual PC crap, I thought you were better than that but obviously I was wrong, where did you get those figures from ? It has nothing to do with prejudice. I've just shown your post to a couple of British Asians I'm working with and the politest comment was 'What planet is this fool on ?' Their words not mine.

 

[simmo]

I know some folk will pick out individual high earners in public sector,but generally pay is poorish and the payback for this has been better pensions,and terms and conditions generally.Nobody particularly likes strikes.Nobody particularly likes striking.It's not a "ooh,lets have a strike today" decision.To the strikers the issues are often painfully clear.To outsiders it's "bloody strikers".

I would disagree with that. I think some union leaders LOVE to strike. Bob Crow being an example. 4 X 1 day strikes are planned beginning very shortly over an issue with 1 member! (at any normal company a dismissal of 1 person is a private matter dealt with between the individual, HR and potentially an unfair dismissal board, other staff members don't go on strike because of it, it is a private individual matter)

I would say union members may not like to strike, but they should beware of where their union bosses are leading them for their own political games. I mean what is a day salary to Bob Crow et al when he gets £100k+ a year.

 

[sten_super]

I'd want more than £22k to step into a classroom and attempt to educate the masses. It's a difficult, often stressful, and very responsible job which goes well beyond the scope of simply standing in front of kids and teaching them.

I know a number of teachers and know a lot of what goes on, the abuse they have to put up with, the lack of support from parents (this in itself is quite shocking) the rubbish facilities and the long hours. I could not do it but I have a lot of respect for those that choose to. If you want a better society I suggest you support the people that try and make this happen on a daily basis, instead of just seeing 6 weeks holiday in the summer and complaining.

They deserve better, a lot better.

£22k is the starting point though - you are guaranteed pay rises of just under £2k per year for the first 5 years until you hit the top of the band at £31.5k. As a point of order NQTs have a reduced timetable and are generally (although not always) not given other responsibilities such as being responsible for a form group which come with increased responsibilities.

I accept that it's a very stressful job, and I always defend the holidays to those that listen; I suspect that the average working week across the year as a whole is probably similar to a commensurate job in the private sector, once the masses of unpaid overtime is balanced out against the extra holiday. But what I do reject is the notion that they are screwed over, particularly in relation to the current debate which is attempting to rationalise their pensions to a sustainable level, away from the current unsustainable model.

 

[sten_super]

Aren't footballer's pension schemes designed to allow a pension to be taken around this age, whereas the majoriy of the population are generally stuck with 55?

I think it's more to do with the vast amounts that they have to put into a pension (if indeed they do have such a thing rather than simply an investment portfolio). I daresay I could convert my lump sum of pensions savings into a perpetuity given out to me from the age of 40, but it would be the square root of sod all.

 

[fork me]

I'm with you on this one. My wife is a teacher and the current starting wage for an NQT (outside of any inner/outer/fringe London weighting) is £21,588. When you take into account the holidays and the brilliant pension those make pretty good conditions IMHO.

Now compare that wage to other jobs that require similar qualifications (ie a full degree + 1 year post grad). It's crap money. The pensions not as great as people claim either, the average teacher pension (for people going full term) is just £9000 a year. I couldn't live on that.

As to the holidays, most teachers work far longer than average people during term time, having worked both as a teacher and in "other jobs", I know I've never worked as long hours anywhere as I did when teaching in the UK. It was normal for me to be in school by 8, not leave til 5 or 6 and still have 3 hours work to do at home.

Amazing how much easier my life is since leaving the UK and working in a country that doesn't insist I spend most of my time doing completely pointless paperwork.