[Politics] Protests/rioting in lots of places

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Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
I think that's slightly wrong - once they claim asylum they have the right for that claim to be heard. However, if they have travelled through a "safe third country" they are deemed not to have arrived here legally. Hence, pretty much the only way an asylum-seeker can legally get here is to fly directly to the UK. There are no direct flights from places like Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, etc.
In international law, they can travel through a safe 3rd country, UK law is a bit grey right now, as the Rwanda bill is a mess and won't be used, but has passed. Travelling through a 3rd safe country can be used as a reason to declare the asylum claim inadmissible, but it is still not illegal to enter a country however you can in order to ask for asylum as far as I am aware.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

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Oct 8, 2003
56,097
Faversham
The lack of processing is a massive problem, personally this is where I would start. As you say the problems you describe would be eased and the people can contribute to society and look after their families.
This is something I will blame the Tories for. They were not prepared to spend the money necessary to make our border controls and people processing work.
 


jackanada

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2011
3,507
Brighton
It’s a bit of a red herring though. If you have a functioning asylum system, whereby people can make an asylum claim abroad, and applications are processed speedily for those who DO get here, then you don’t need all these hotels and detention centres.
The current situation will improve quite quickly with a sensible approach.
Has anyone checked who is benefitting from the funding for detention centres? I haven't but I'll wager good money as to which party they'll have ties to.
 


Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,770
Fiveways
If they aren’t documented, they aren’t paying tax. They are doing jobs, usually cash in hand, often in “modern slavery” conditions, which is hurting the economy. Meanwhile, they are consuming public services such as a hugely strained NHS. No documentation, no NI number. No legal right to work, no tax.
'Consuming public services': it's the elderly that largely use (not consume) public services, not those that have recently arrived in this country, who are looking to work and earn a living.
All the stats point in this direction, yet the likes of the Daily Mail provide a very different (if we're being honest: wrong -- and ask yourself, why are they wrong here?) account.
 


jcdenton08

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Oct 17, 2008
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'Consuming public services': it's the elderly that largely use (not consume) public services, not those that have recently arrived in this country, who are looking to work and earn a living.
All the stats point in this direction, yet the likes of the Daily Mail provide a very different (if we're being honest: wrong -- and ask yourself, why are they wrong here?) account.
Do you know, I’ve heard this one a lot. Ignoring the Daily Mail stuff, yes elderly people do use a lot of NHS services. So? They’ve paid into and contributed towards funding for the NHS through a lifetime of taxes in most cases. Is demonising elderly people more morally palatable than migrants? I’ve never understood this line of thinking.
 




Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
Has anyone checked who is benefitting from the funding for detention centres? I haven't but I'll wager good money as to which party they'll have ties to.
Bibby Stockhom was connected in some way, not sure about others.
What I did learn is that the first year of costs/support from the state for refugees was being written down as foreign aid, so it was being used as a way to keep money that was agreed to be spent overseas, in the UK.
I would be surprised if a lot of it didn't end up spent with those with ties to the last Government.
 


worthingweird

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
358
'Consuming public services': it's the elderly that largely use (not consume) public services, not those that have recently arrived in this country, who are looking to work and earn a living.
All the stats point in this direction, yet the likes of the Daily Mail provide a very different (if we're being honest: wrong -- and ask yourself, why are they wrong here?) account.
Naivity at it's best...
 


WATFORD zero

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Jul 10, 2003
27,766
I see things very differently, mostly based around two issues:

First, inequality has been allowed to let rip for 45 years. It will only be addressed properly at the global level. It is this that has led to the abandonment of the working class. Are you seriously indicting immigration for the closure of the mines and the failure to rebuild those communities in its aftermath?

Second, in Europe (Japan also) there are sizeable demographic shifts that have been ongoing for decades which has led to an increase in the elderly non-working population. They need a substantial working population to cater for their needs. Ergo, immigration. I can only see three alternatives to immigration to address this.

One is that you force/encourage the labour force to take on new/different careers (all of which require training) including social work, healthcare and teaching.
Two is that you introduce requirements to increase the birth rate.
Three is that you withdraw care for the elderly (as there's insufficient labour to perform it).

You'll need to tell me if there are any other alternatives to this and, if not, which of these that you'd want to bring in.

I understand what you are saying but none of those three options look very good.

If I attack a Mosque, lob bricks at the Police and generally make a complete tit of myself, will that open up other options ? (Asking for a friend :smile:)
 




worthingseagull123

Well-known member
May 5, 2012
2,687
So. If there is a racist march / demo in Brighton, would anyone consider attending a counter protest?

What's the role of a law abiding citizen in the face of these riots? Should we be going out an visibly objecting? But that doesn't help the police much does it?

Sitting here posting about it on a screen seems to not quite be enough.

I'd like to go to the route of the demo and stand there with my back turned, but guess i'll likely get a brick to the back of my head

I don’t think we’ll protests this way.

Limited to deprived areas, larger settlements and areas with immigration offices.
 


WATFORD zero

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Jul 10, 2003
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Do we have any up to date figures of how many people we have in the UK currently in the asylum process?

I read the other week that Turkey has 22.5million refugees as of last month, the largest figure in the world, which would kind of dwarf our levels. but do the born and bred Turks ever riot about immigration? :shrug:

Here's the detail Lenny

https://fullfact.org/immigration/asylum-backlog/#:~:text=Official immigration figures (published quarterly,of these cases still outstanding.

I believe it reached it's highest level in June 2023 at about 150,000 and currently stands at about 85,000. Not to be confused with and somewhat dwarfed by the record 1.2 Million immigrant visas awarded by the Government last year.

And here's the top 25 countries taking Asylum seekers.

asylum biggest.jpg
 


Chicken Run

Member Since Jul 2003
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Jul 17, 2003
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Valley of Hangleton
Do you know, I’ve heard this one a lot. Ignoring the Daily Mail stuff, yes elderly people do use a lot of NHS services. So? They’ve paid into and contributed towards funding for the NHS through a lifetime of taxes in most cases. Is demonising elderly people more morally palatable than migrants? I’ve never understood this line of thinking.
I’ve got to be honest, whilst your course you’re right, it’s wrong to demonise the elderly but the major of the taxes they paid were when they were working right? If so they were contributing to the care of my generation’s grandparents who were born in the early 1900’s, now let’s use my mum (91) two hips, two knees, two cataracts, 11 different types of pills each month, bus pass heat allowance etc, I don’t recall my grandparents having hips knees dentures cataracts and heating allowance, so it’s Gen X, early millennial’s and late boomers who’s tax in majority contributing for all this right now, not the taxes of the elderly surely?
 




jcdenton08

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Oct 17, 2008
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I’ve got to be honest, whilst your course you’re right, it’s wrong to demonise the elderly but the major of the taxes they paid were when they were working right? If so they were contributing to the care of my generation’s grandparents who were born in the early 1900’s, now let’s use my mum (91) two hips, two knees, two cataracts, 11 different types of pills each month, bus pass heat allowance etc, I don’t recall my grandparents having hips knees dentures cataracts and heating allowance, so it’s Gen X, early millennial’s and late boomers who’s tax in majority contributing for all this right now, not the taxes of the elderly surely?
Exactly but you’ve described the tax system in a nutshell, it has to be based on goodwill, which is why the wealthiest should be paying their fair share (they’re not), businesses like Amazon should be paying their fair share (they’re not) and foreign workers should be paying their fair share. Then when they grow elderly and use more NHS services, the next generation and so on. Everyone benefits when it’s their turn.
 


KZNSeagull

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
21,093
Wolsingham, County Durham
So. If there is a racist march / demo in Brighton, would anyone consider attending a counter protest?

What's the role of a law abiding citizen in the face of these riots? Should we be going out an visibly objecting? But that doesn't help the police much does it?

Sitting here posting about it on a screen seems to not quite be enough.

I'd like to go to the route of the demo and stand there with my back turned, but guess i'll likely get a brick to the back of my head
I personally think that counter protests do not work as it just gives the original protestors something else to attack. The first and simplest thing that a law abiding citizen can do is actually vote when they are asked to so that the voices of the far right (or far left for that matter) are suppressed (hopefully).
 


Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
Naivity at it's best...
It's not naive, it's the truth, if you want to say it isn't true, counter it with something.
It's not being suggested we euthanise the elderly, but if you want the funds available to look after them, and do everything else, we need people in work and paying taxes, its the reason retirement age has been shifted upwards, and its the reason so many work visas have been granted. Immigration is part of the solution.
 








Chicken Run

Member Since Jul 2003
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Jul 17, 2003
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Valley of Hangleton
Here's the detail Lenny

https://fullfact.org/immigration/asylum-backlog/#:~:text=Official immigration figures (published quarterly,of these cases still outstanding.

I believe it reached it's highest level in June 2023 at about 150,000 and currently stands at about 85,000. Not to be confused with and somewhat dwarfed by the record 1.2 Million immigrant visas awarded by the Government last year.

And here's the top 25 countries taking Asylum seekers.

View attachment 186593
Genuine question, you describe that graph as ‘taking asylum seekers’ are you certain that the correct terminology shouldn’t be ‘hosting refugees’ genuine question an no need for a sarcastic responses? 👍
 






Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,284
Back in Sussex
Plymouth City Council has advised residents to stay away from the city centre from 16:00 BST due to planned demonstrations.

The council said the Regent Street car park would be closed and buses would be rerouted away from Royal Parade.

Devon and Cornwall Police said it was increasing its presence in the city centre and it was "fully prepared to respond to incidents of disorder".

The city council said people should consider staying away from the city "to ensure your safety".
 


WATFORD zero

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Jul 10, 2003
27,766
Do you know, I’ve heard this one a lot. Ignoring the Daily Mail stuff, yes elderly people do use a lot of NHS services. So? They’ve paid into and contributed towards funding for the NHS through a lifetime of taxes in most cases. Is demonising elderly people more morally palatable than migrants? I’ve never understood this line of thinking.

I completely agree we shouldn't demonise the elderly (particularly those of us closer than others), but the worrying fact is that all the money I have paid in tax over the years (a substantial amount) has been spent. It's gone on the NHS for me, my parents and my kids, my kids education, paying the pensions of the generation before me, benefits, having excellent emergency services throughout my lifetime, infrastructure etc etc.

And probably reasonable efficiently over the last 49 years that I've been paying tax (ignoring the last 5 :wink:)

However that will all still need to be paid for next week, next year, the year after etc. Given our shrinking working population (I know, Boomers and Generation X not shagging enough) stopping, or even lessening 1.2 Million people a year paying those taxes will have a pretty significant effect on the level of services we can afford :shrug:
 


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