[Football] Potter [NOT] at Chelsea

[Sheebo]

Not sure I feel comfortable comparing Potter and RDZ. I dislike Potter in a Chelsea sense due to the obvious ripping the coaching and scouting team apart and we showed him that v Chelsea (if he even gets it), but he was the best manager we’ve ever had imo. He has definitely set the foundations for what we have - as did CH and even as far back as Poyet. RDZ brand certainly seems more goals and certainly more goals for and entertaining - but without huge changes to the team etc. I’m not going to suddenly slag what Potter did for us because he’s been a knob and nicked loads of staff. He did a great job - obviously hope he fails at Chelsea though - that’s football, and as much to do with Chelsea and their dirty money greed than it is Potter…!

Everytime a player leaves there’s posters suddenly saying they weren’t that good and never rated them etc. as the years go by the players contributions for us seem to suddenly be worse for some memories. Just look at comments on Biss or Bridcutt recently to see that!

 

[BadFish]

Well the primary way to winning over most fans is to win games. If you win everything, the manager could heil on the sideline and the fans would do the same.

Bit unlikely though isn't it? I am told that there are more ups and downs that that in football.

 

[B-right-on]

Be interesting to see how Chelsea do away at Fulham on Thursday.

 

[Bring back Bryan wade!!]

I know we’ve rehearsed these points many times before and we’re all beginning to repeat ourselves, but this is the nub of things for me. Of course, many will cry that there’s no such thing as loyalty in football anymore - but actually I believe there is (even if it’s becoming rarer).
Potter had a really good gig here, and the security of a long contract, stable ownership and outstanding prospects.
But more importantly he had understanding fans (in the main) and an owner who backed him through some pretty thin times.

We had about a dozen games (at the end of a long wait) where things started to click. But instead of stick around and build on that, Potter buggered off at the first real opportunity. And it wasn’t even the right job for him!!

Spot on analysis.

 

[Swansman]

Bit unlikely though isn't it? I am told that there are more ups and downs that that in football.

Sure but doesn't take THAT good of a run to charm a new audience. Steven Gerrard a couple of months into his job could have slaughtered kittens during the post-game interview and gotten away with it. "Oh, look how quick and direct he ripped the head off Kitty, such determination, such tactical awareness! Fuckin Dean Smith would've let it run away..."

 

[e77]

Interesting comment, at least to me, among my Notepad documents

View attachment 155557
Think you must go check it out because all you read is true.

Are they looking after the nuclear missiles stored there?

 

[warmleyseagull]

That isn't true though. Up to that run of 6 straight defeats we sat in 9th, we were: P23 W7 D12 L4 pts 33. That was 1.43 ppg, an improvement. The last 9 games got us 18 more points, but given there were 6 straight defeats, where did you imagine the other 33 came from if it wasn't improvement?

At 1.43 ppg we were on target for a 55 pts season, after 23 games we were only 8 points short of the previous season total - how on earth was that not improvement in results?

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. You can cut this anyway you like, but you can’t just ignore 6 defeats on the spin. Fact is that after 29 games we were also on 33 points and heading for 43 points using your PPG method; a very slight improvement on the preceding season.

The key is game 31 was a season changer: Caicedo debuted, Mwepu came back from injury (and,I would add, Maupay dropped, but let’s not go there), 2-1 at Arsenal and off we went. You might say genius Potter for picking Caicedo, but he had the honesty later in the run to admit he should have played him earlier. Had he done so, it’s not too much of a stretch to say we might have pipped West Ham for a European place.

I am in minority of about one, I believe, who thinks Potter gets far too much credit for finishing 9th. Instead,, credit the acquisitions team for pinching MC from Man U and ask why GP waited till April to play him.

 

[BadFish]

Sure but doesn't take THAT good of a run to charm a new audience. Steven Gerrard a couple of months into his job could have slaughtered kittens during the post-game interview and gotten away with it. "Oh, look how quick and direct he ripped the head off Kitty, such determination, such tactical awareness!"

Winning games is important in winning over fans, perhaps the most important thing. However there are a number of other factors which also affect the affection for a manager.

I am putting two and two together here and starting to understand your bewilderment at us Brighton fans not considering Potter as some kind of footballing god

As I said in a previous post one of these factors is that a popular manager should be managing said fan's club. We like him less now because he doesn't manage us any more. Obviously this is tricky to understand when you are a manager fan rather than a club fan.

 

[Swansman]

Winning games is important in winning over fans, perhaps the most important thing. However there are a number of other factors which also affect the affection for a manager.

I am putting two and two together here and starting to understand your bewilderment at us Brighton fans not considering Potter as some kind of footballing god

As I said in a previous post one of these factors is that a popular manager should be managing said fan's club. We like him less now because he doesn't manage us any more. Obviously this is tricky to understand when you are a manager fan rather than a club fan.

Not one bit bewildered. I understand completely why a lot of Brighton fans don't like him but there really is very little point in doing like lots now are and try to spin around history - "played cautious football", "didn't attack", "never made subs to change the games", "didn't give youngsters a chance", "9th was shite"... that sort of things all around the board. I've seen more of Brighton than 90% here over the last three years, and I also have all the numbers, and so much of what being said is just bollocks. That people are angry now doesn't have any impact on all the good things the manager AND the entire club has done for the last couple of years.

 

[BadFish]

Not one bit bewildered. I understand completely why a lot of Brighton fans don't like him but there really is very little point in doing like lots now are and try to spin around history - "played cautious football", "didn't attack", "never made subs to change the games", "didn't give youngsters a chance", "9th was shite"... that sort of things all around the board. I've seen more of Brighton than 90% here over the last three years, and I also have all the numbers, and so much of what being said is just bollocks. That people are angry now doesn't have any impact on all the good things the manager AND the entire club has done for the last couple of years.

Fair enough, I've not seen any of those quotes. The criticisms I am seeing are the same ones levelled when he was here, by the same posters.

Anyway I will leave you to defend his honour with those cruelly besmerching his legacy.

 

[Wozza]

The key is game 31 was a season changer: Caicedo debuted, Mwepu came back from injury (and,I would add, Maupay dropped, but let’s not go there), 2-1 at Arsenal and off we went.

I was thinking about this (Caicedo's debut coinciding with our great run-in, and how important he was/is), just this morning.

Amazing how a few performances at the end of last season (eg Arsenal and Spurs away; Man Utd and West Ham at home) changed perceptions - and sent Potter hype into overdrive.

I've seen details of Potter's win rate at Brighton shared on social, and Chelsea fans are often shocked. It doesn't match the hype.

Of course, we know that he got Albion playing some great football; improved players etc etc. Not knocking him for what he did for us at all.

But our home form under Potter was generally terrible. Which is quite a statement about a 'hot' manager, when you think about it.

Anyway, Caicedo is easily our most important player. Doubt we'll let him go this month, but the summer is a worry.

 

[BadFish]

I was thinking about this (Caicedo's debut coinciding with our great run-in, and how important he was/is), just this morning.

Amazing how a few performances at the end of last season (eg Arsenal and Spurs away; Man Utd and West Ham at home) changed perceptions - and sent Potter hype into overdrive.

I've seen details of Potter's win rate at Brighton shared on social, and Chelsea fans are often shocked. It doesn't match the hype.

Of course, we know that he got Albion playing some great football; improved players etc etc. Not knocking him for what he did for us at all.

But our home form under Potter was generally terrible. Which is quite a statement about a 'hot' manager, when you think about it.

Anyway, Caicedo is easily our most important player. Doubt we'll let him go this month, but the summer is a worry.

For me he was all about potential, most fans could see what he was trying to do and were confident it would all come good (or was that just me?). The hype started when it all looked like it was clicking. This made other teams sit up and take notice.

Then he bailed before he saw it through.

 

[Baldseagull]

That isn't true though. Up to that run of 6 straight defeats we sat in 9th, we were: P23 W7 D12 L4 pts 33. That was 1.43 ppg, an improvement. The last 9 games got us 18 more points, but given there were 6 straight defeats, where did you imagine the other 33 came from if it wasn't improvement?

At 1.43 ppg we were on target for a 55 pts season, after 23 games we were only 8 points short of the previous season total - how on earth was that not improvement in results?

What isn't true though? I have not said anything untrue.



And after that run of 6 straight defeats points average was 1.13. Ultimately we did better, you can use that to argue, but not a smaller sample size. That is how on earth it was not an improvement on results, till the last 8 games.

I don't need to imagine, I know where the other points came from, 21 of them came from the 7 wins, 3 wins against sides that were relegated, 2 against newly promoted Brentford, 1 against Everton in shit form, and a decent one against Leicester. Some good draws, away at Liverpool, home and away v Chelsea, home to Arsenal, and some shit ones, Leeds home and away, Saints home and away, and Norwich home and away.


We could go on forever picking this period or that period, the only really fair period is one whole season, and for 2 seasons there was little points progress, we had a soft start to the 3rd season with some winnable games, and win them we did, however rather than carry that momentum on we spluttered along, getting some good draws, some bad draws, some bad defeats and a very occasional win, then the last 8 we clicked and got wins against good sides, which barring Leicester at home back in September, we had not done up until that time.

 

[Baldseagull]

Not one bit bewildered. I understand completely why a lot of Brighton fans don't like him but there really is very little point in doing like lots now are and try to spin around history - "played cautious football", "didn't attack", "never made subs to change the games", "didn't give youngsters a chance", "9th was shite"... that sort of things all around the board. I've seen more of Brighton than 90% here over the last three years, and I also have all the numbers, and so much of what being said is just bollocks. That people are angry now doesn't have any impact on all the good things the manager AND the entire club has done for the last couple of years.

87% of percentages are just made up. And I think some of your quotes are too.

 

[Swansman]

87% of percentages are just made up. And I think some of your quotes are too.

Of all the games shown since GP took over, I've only missed 4 full games plus another 4 first/second halfs and this includes all the (streamed/televised) friendlies and so on. Struggle to think that over 10% have seen more, could be wrong though.

The quotes are not exact word-by-word quotes but I've seen those exact opinions stated here.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Chris Hughton did a better job for us than Potter did.

He actually kept us up in a period when the quality of players and the youth coming through at his disposal wasn't anywhere near what Potter had.

The style of play we play isn't down to Potter that much either. It's down to Tony Blooms vision for how he wants his team to play.

Potter will just be one of many who are hired to get TBs vision to happen on the pitch.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I'm one of the very few that voted that I hope he succeeds, for reasons buried earlier on the thread. I was also someone who hated him when he left, for leaving us right at the time when all the hard work and faith was paying off, I've not forgiven him exactly but recognise what an important role he played and what a great job he did. I'm also like the vast majority that is excited by RDZ and the potential he is showing.

One interesting thought experiment is to go back to the time immediately after Leicester and ask ourselves if we'd rather none of this had happened and Potter was still here. Most will, I'm sure, reflect on the goings on and say we're pleased how it all worked out. It's certainly true that if it wasn't Chelsea it would have been someone and we'd always be looking over our shoulders every time a vacancy came up. But the other side of the coin is that his departure certainly put a dent in our progress. I reckon that if he'd have stayed we'd be having the season that Newcastle are having, and that still frustrates the heck out of me.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. You can cut this anyway you like, but you can’t just ignore 6 defeats on the spin. Fact is that after 29 games we were also on 33 points and heading for 43 points using your PPG method; a very slight improvement on the preceding season.

The key is game 31 was a season changer: Caicedo debuted, Mwepu came back from injury (and,I would add, Maupay dropped, but let’s not go there), 2-1 at Arsenal and off we went. You might say genius Potter for picking Caicedo, but he had the honesty later in the run to admit he should have played him earlier. Had he done so, it’s not too much of a stretch to say we might have pipped West Ham for a European place.

I am in minority of about one, I believe, who thinks Potter gets far too much credit for finishing 9th. Instead,, credit the acquisitions team for pinching MC from Man U and ask why GP waited till April to play him.

Not ignoring it, just pointing out the 23 games before it were an improvement to that point, the anamoly that season was the 6 defeats, not the run at the end.

The trigger for that poor run was Dunk getting sent off in a very good display but defeat at OT. He missed Burnley and Duffy had to try to handle Weghorst and didn’t. And you’re right, throwing Caicedo and Mwepu really did change us and shake us out of the rut we found ourselves in.

But I want to be really clear, I’m not defending Potter here, I’m defending the season I mostly enjoyed and how well the team did, how the players really started to believe in themselves. I just don’t see those seasons as lacking improvement. It’s probably coming across as Potter-cult, it isn’t, I was less upset than most when he left as I genuinely felt someone could come in and continue the good work, it wasn’t all him, it was the players that had stepped up and improved. I was genuinely excited the moment RDZ was announced.

 

[Horses Arse]

I agree, especially after this latest ongoing shopping spree, gathering Europe’s best.

Nsc is going to really hate The Chavs next summer. A Merseyside journalist is reporting that Caicedo will ultimately join Chelsea.

I agree his work with Ostersunds was very very good, but I think we all suffer from delusions in football, and now he’s no longer with Brighton I can stop being deluded with the idea that he was a genius. Pretending his first two seasons with Brighton were highly successful would be incorrect and his time at Swansea was instantly out done by Cooper within a year. Getting us 9th was impressive and leaving us at 4th was also pretty decent but he had a chance to do something genuinely special with us, but he chose to not be highly successful with Chelsea.

9th was great, but caicedo had a lot to do with that, it was a mistake holding him back for so long. Could so easily have been 13th as I recall in the last game played. But still good after an appalling mid period when we threw the good start away.

Another good start this season, would we have maintained that or thrown it away like last season? Doesn't look like Potter believed we would maintain it. We've improved our performances, there's not been a dud although there have been a few potteresque failures to score and I reckon a Potter team wouldn't have lost to villa.

We've certainly benefited from his greed so all positive for me! I do hope he bombs out at Chelsea though as it would be good for his education. Perhaps realise that when he said it was a team effort he was actually correct.

He's a great coach, great manager and both parties benefit from the relationship. The question at large is whether Potter has peaked, I'm not sure we have just yet. Strap in!!!