[Football] Potter [NOT] at Chelsea

[GT49er]

Yes we were 4th, but you know we had only played 6 games right?
We beat Leicester 5-2, Leeds 1-0, West Ham 2-0 and on the opening day, Man Utd at old Trafford for the first time ever, 2-1. It was great. But objectively, we had some soft opposition on the days.

Leicester lost 5 of their opening 6 games, drew the other, and got beat 6-2 the following week by Tottenham.
Leeds lost 5 and drew 3 of their 8 games after our win at home against them. They have not won away all season.
West Ham lost 5 and won just one of their opening 7 games, 1-0 against Steven Gerards Villa.
Man Utd lost 4-0 to Brentford the following week, the new manager was just a bit behind schedule in readying his team for the season.
We also got a point at home to Newcastle who are hard to beat, and lost to Fulham away, no real shame in either of those results, but Fulham have not beaten any side currently higher than us in the table

Bollocks! We were going like a train...........................

 

[Swansman]

Yes we were 4th, but you know we had only played 6 games right?
We beat Leicester 5-2, Leeds 1-0, West Ham 2-0 and on the opening day, Man Utd at old Trafford for the first time ever, 2-1. It was great. But objectively, we had some soft opposition on the days.

Leicester lost 5 of their opening 6 games, drew the other, and got beat 6-2 the following week by Tottenham.
Leeds lost 5 and drew 3 of their 8 games after our win at home against them. They have not won away all season.
West Ham lost 5 and won just one of their opening 7 games, 1-0 against Steven Gerards Villa.
Man Utd lost 4-0 to Brentford the following week, the new manager was just a bit behind schedule in readying his team for the season.
We also got a point at home to Newcastle who are hard to beat, and lost to Fulham away, no real shame in either of those results, but Fulham have not beaten any side currently higher than us in the table

It is true that some of the opponents weren't all that good. Was a pretty nice start to the season in that sense.

However, all of those teams are better than three (...at least) out of the four teams the boys have beaten under De Zerbi in the league.

Despite failing to win 7 out of 8 games against teams not currently in the bottom 3 and despite being in 13th place since RDZ took over, pretty much most of what I hear and read is how the results are better and that GP was holding the team back etc. Just silly.

It has no basis in reality. There is not a single metric saying Brighton are doing better now.

It bothers me for two reasons: one: I hate this sort of history revisionism and fact-twisting. Two: RDZ seems to be a good bloke and manager, but that won't prevent him from getting a brutal treatment from some people here when they discover he is a human and not a God. The expectations are clearly through the roof right now and with people sipping wine on the clouds, the inevitable return to earth is a very heavy fall.

 

[Baldseagull]

It is true that some of the opponents weren't all that good. Was a pretty nice start to the season in that sense.

However, all of those teams are better than three (...at least) out of the four teams the boys have beaten under De Zerbi in the league.

I agree that with De Zerbi we have not beaten any of the better sides yet, but it didn't feel like Arsenal were a class above us the other week, and I think they were fortunate to meet us without Caicedo or Mac Allister available to us.

 

[Baldseagull]

Bollocks! We were going like a train...........................

We were good, but the opposition in most of those wins were not in good form at the time.

 

[albionalex]

It is true that some of the opponents weren't all that good. Was a pretty nice start to the season in that sense.

However, all of those teams are better than three (...at least) out of the four teams the boys have beaten under De Zerbi in the league.

Despite failing to win 7 out of 8 games against teams not currently in the bottom 3 and despite being in 13th place since RDZ took over, pretty much most of what I hear and read is how the results are better and that GP was holding the team back etc. Just silly.

It has no basis in reality. There is not a single metric saying Brighton are doing better now.

It bothers me for two reasons: one: I hate this sort of history revisionism and fact-twisting. Two: RDZ seems to be a good bloke and manager, but that won't prevent him from getting a brutal treatment from some people here when they discover he is a human and not a God. The expectations are clearly through the roof right now and with people sipping wine on the clouds, the inevitable return to earth is a very heavy fall.

Is fun a metric?

 

[BadFish]

Is fun a metric?

Enjoying games more doesn't count unless you can find a stat to back it up.

We must all love Potter and miss him terribly

 

[BadFish]

It is true that some of the opponents weren't all that good. Was a pretty nice start to the season in that sense.

However, all of those teams are better than three (...at least) out of the four teams the boys have beaten under De Zerbi in the league.

Despite failing to win 7 out of 8 games against teams not currently in the bottom 3 and despite being in 13th place since RDZ took over, pretty much most of what I hear and read is how the results are better and that GP was holding the team back etc. Just silly.

It has no basis in reality. There is not a single metric saying Brighton are doing better now.

It bothers me for two reasons: one: I hate this sort of history revisionism and fact-twisting. Two: RDZ seems to be a good bloke and manager, but that won't prevent him from getting a brutal treatment from some people here when they discover he is a human and not a God. The expectations are clearly through the roof right now and with people sipping wine on the clouds, the inevitable return to earth is a very heavy fall.

What about if you compare Potter and Dezerbi's highest goal return for Brighton over a consecutive 4 game run?

I make De Zerbi's 14. I can't be bothered to go through our results under Potter so feel free to surprise me and find a 4 game run where he did better.

What you are seeing isn't revisionism it is the human aspect of football and context that stats find it hard to account for.

We have gone from

"well that's it all our staff and our manager have gone and our players are being picked off, we are going to slide down the table"

to

"Well bugger me if we aren't winning games and scoring a load of goals along the way, maybe things aren't going to be so bad after all. I like this De Zerbi fella, he's giving us something that Potter didn't"

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Potter was holding the team back, he started a brilliant job with us.

You may understand football, stats and all that other stuff but you still have a little to learn about Brighton.

On this I think there is another metric that shows perfectly why most people on here prefer De Zerbi:

Team Managing:

De Zerbi - Brighton
Potter - Someone Else

Who is better? Well De Zerbi is because he is here and we are playing well. Surely you can excuse us all being a little excited about what is happening the last 4 games, and for what may happen for the rest of the season. We may come down to earth, some with a bump but check our history fella, we'll be okay, bumps we can handle.

You can stay on here and try to convince us all of the wonder of Potter and while most will agree, you are going to find that almost all are going to prefer De Zerbi.

I am sure there are a few Chelsea forums that could benefit from your pro-Potter wisdom though. I am sure they will appreciate your metrics

 

[BadFish]

.

 

[Guinness Boy]

What about if you compare Potter and Dezerbi's highest goal return for Brighton over a consecutive 4 game run?

I make De Zerbi's 14. I can't be bothered to go through our results under Potter so feel free to surprise me and find a 4 game run where he did better.

What you are seeing isn't revisionism it is the human aspect of football and context that stats find it hard to account for.

We have gone from

"well that's it all our staff and our manager have gone and our players are being picked off, we are going to slide down the table"

to

"Well bugger me if we aren't winning games and scoring a load of goals along the way, maybe things aren't going to be so bad after all. I like this De Zerbi fella, he's giving us something that Potter didn't"

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Potter was holding the team back, he started a brilliant job with us.

You may understand football, stats and all that other stuff but you still have a little to learn about Brighton.

On this I think there is another metric that shows perfectly why most people on here prefer De Zerbi:

Team Managing:

De Zerbi - Brighton
Potter - Someone Else

Who is better? Well De Zerbi is because he is here and we are playing well. Surely you can excuse us all being a little excited about what is happening the last 4 games, and for what may happen for the rest of the season. We may come down to earth, some with a bump but check our history fella, we'll be okay, bumps we can handle.

You can stay on here and try to convince us all of the wonder of Potter and while most will agree, you are going to find that almost all are going to prefer De Zerbi.

I am sure there are a few Chelsea forums that could benefit from your pro-Potter wisdom though. I am sure they will appreciate your metrics

You're forgetting likeability and professionalism.

Many here simply prefer De Zerbi because of his passion and of course our most loyal and loud fans respect that. Potter, on the other hand, is a walking cliche, dull as dishwater and unable to take criticism. Part of the glow up found him finally trying to relate to our fans but too little, too late.

Of course, just having passion isn't enough or you get Mike Basset. But Lallana has talked about having to help make training "more like a match" when he arrived and players going who hadn't bought into it. De Zerbi has been talked of as a "tactical nerd" but he's also prepared to drop the likes of Trossard and has got Solly March scoring again.

I can hear a keyboard being warmed up in Lund, so let's make it clear. I'm not saying Potter was unprofessional in any way or that he lacks passion for what he does, but his introvert nature and bristling at criticism makes him much less likeable to your average football fan, and you can tell the players, in the main, have reacted to De Zerbi and are massively enjoying their football. Unlike Chelsea and unlike March or Maupay here.

 

[Guinness Boy]

It's me again - from Blackburn.
I look at your board occasionally because of recent connections.
I notice that Locadia is usually mentioned with a hint of sarcasm.
On one "gossip" site, I saw that he is a free agent, and that there had been a link with Rovers.
How do you think he would do as a target-man at a middling-to-decent Championship club, with a 50% chance of a play-off place?

Very, very lazy. Almost our laziest player ever, though not quite in Leon Best and Kemi Agustien levels. Earned the nickname "DJ Strollabout".

 

[Bold Seagull]

Highly successful for those who have any interest in context (= not you).

They were.

 

[Brovion]

It's all Potter, Potter, Potter at the moment - but is that really the problem (apart from overpaid self-styled superstars who consideer themselves above working for a manager who isn't foreign, ex[pensive and famous (and covered in glitter))?

Surely the big ball's now in the court of Winstanley and Potter's recrutment guru that he took with him. And, just to stir the pond a little more, how are two superstar GKs reacting to a mainly lower league (good as he was) GK coaching them? Are they ignoring him too?

Indeed. In fact I wonder why they bothered poaching the likes of Winstanley et al? Our recruitment model is based on clever-clever analysis and trying to find the uncut diamonds, Chelsea still seem to be yer bog-standard Big Club happy to pay billions to hoover up all the established talent they can lay their hands on. If that is still going to be their model then they don't need skilled recruitment people or even decent development coaches, they can just read the newspapers, see who the top players are and buy them.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The revisionism from some on this thread (and the others like it) is incredible.

You know we were 4th when he left, right? Average achievement? Really?

You're either on a wind-up, or really stupid.
Perhaps both?

Remember the Potter Out votes? These are just people who wanted him gone, then he won games on the bounce and we were flying and they’re like we’re sorry he’s brilliant, and now he’s left they’re like we were right the whole time booo. Hilarious really, objectivity not a word that comes into it.

 

[Bold Seagull]

A fair assessment of GP’s achievements over these 4 seasons however the only thing I would disagree with is that he didn’t exceed any of the aims that you’ve highlighted. In season 3 with us he had a bit of luck because we were on a downward spiral with a shocking run of results from January to March - what stopped the rot and turned it around was that game at Arsenal, and specifically his decision to give Caicedo his first start and finally drop Maupay and give Welbeck a start. Those 2 players then remained in the team for the rest of the season and that’s what rescued GP in terms of his aim of finishing top 10. And let’s not forget that at half time of the final game against West Ham we were sitting 13th in the league until we turned the game round in the second half.

This should have been the season where he could have pushed on and exceeded aims and expectations but he jumped ship at the first opportunity. As much as it was gut wrenching at the time, i don’t blame him for taking that opportunity - but I bloody well dislike him for the way he conducted himself in taking that opportunity and asset stripping us in the process, and for that reason I am very happy to watch Chelsea implode and so hope we finish above them this season. I believed this was going to completely de-rail our season, but Tony has really pulled it out the bag with his appointment of RDZ where I genuinely feel we’ve had an upgrade and a got ourselves a better manager and with some charisma thrown in too for good measure.

It’s this kind of subjective memory thing that keeps this discussion rolling. Last season we were 4th after 8 games. By the 12th Feb we were still 9th. The ‘downward spiral’ was a run of 6 games that included 5 straight defeats, including some strong opposition that saw us visit Arsenal in 13th still.

You could look at your last day scenario and say if Maupay didn’t miss a tap at Norwich, if Dunk hadn’t got sent off at OT,
then we’d have been 8th or better.

Last match points will always decide your final league position. Suddenly it’s luck we smashed West Ham and finished 9th.

I’m starting to feel like we’re in the Marvel Multiverse!

 

[Lever]

I believe that his first game for us may have been against Coventry in the cup. He was the best player on the pitch imho but Coventry were League One. Unlike most on here, I think he could do it in the Championship. Apparently he was scoring loads earlier this season for Persepolis FC.

Not a player for the EPL if you get promoted though even though he has 3 goals in that competition. However, he does score every 163 minutes in the FA Cup, not too shabby.

I agree with this; I think he is capable of doing a good job for Rovers. GP recognised 'there was a good footballer in there somewhere...' I think it all depend on his commitment to football and his club....

 

[dwayne]

It’s this kind of subjective memory thing that keeps this discussion rolling. Last season we were 4th after 8 games. By the 12th Feb we were still 9th. The ‘downward spiral’ was a run of 6 games that included 5 straight defeats, including some strong opposition that saw us visit Arsenal in 13th still.

You could look at your last day scenario and say if Maupay didn’t miss a tap at Norwich, if Dunk hadn’t got sent off at OT,
then we’d have been 8th or better.

Last match points will always decide your final league position. Suddenly it’s luck we smashed West Ham and finished 9th.

I’m starting to feel like we’re in the Marvel Multiverse!

This is all fair. But I genuinely believe we had the 9th best squad so I still don't believe potter was working any kind of miracle.

The recruitment team are the heros in the piece.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

It's me again - from Blackburn.
I look at your board occasionally because of recent connections.
I notice that Locadia is usually mentioned with a hint of sarcasm.
On one "gossip" site, I saw that he is a free agent, and that there had been a link with Rovers.
How do you think he would do as a target-man at a middling-to-decent Championship club, with a 50% chance of a play-off place?

Dreadful.

When he last played he was overweight and movement wise had no idea (or perhaps no inclination of how to move).

He can finish, but I think the championship will be too tough for him. Can’t head the ball (I think that was his own admission early on, and aspires to join Man Utd). Possibly a better DJ, and it looked like that was where is heartbwas.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

It’s this kind of subjective memory thing that keeps this discussion rolling. Last season we were 4th after 8 games. By the 12th Feb we were still 9th. The ‘downward spiral’ was a run of 6 games that included 5 straight defeats, including some strong opposition that saw us visit Arsenal in 13th still.

On that point, I don't think we had scored for 7 games and had just been stuffed at home to Burnley. I think I'm right in saying that the introduction of Caciedo was partially forced. Moder did his ACL which generated a space and then we flew. Whether he'd have played if Moder doesn't get injured we will never know but we sort of stumbled across our best team.

Whilst I don't subscribe to some of the stuff written re Potter, it does highlight that football management has an element of luck about it. He certainly isn't getting any at Chelsea which we can all agree is highly amusing to watch.

 

[Bold Seagull]

This is all fair. But I genuinely believe we had the 9th best squad so I still don't believe potter was working any kind of miracle.

The recruitment team are the heros in the piece.

How did you conclude we had the 9th best squad? Cucurella hadn’t played in the PL, MacA just finding his feet, Mwepu unknown, Caicedo was out on loan, we still had Duffy as defensive cover, Maupay up front, Gross apperantly too old for many people (happy to check past Gross threads for you), Dan Burn who couldn’t play left back - where’s this 9th best squad come from?

What is it this season then? What target has RDZ got, given he was handed a team in 4th - is 9th just ordinary par for the manager again, 8th maybe, is top 7 the only real successful measure?

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Graham Potter was fantastic for us, I have no complaints on his time here.
De Zerbi has picked up a squad in form and kept it going.
His stylistic changes have made watching us far more enjoyable.

However it is way too early to compare the two.
De Zerbi ball will stop being enjoyable, when we are shipping goals for fun and unable to hit the target again.

If that doesn't happen, then De Zerbi is a genius and he won't be here long.