[News] Poland and abortion.

[Withdean11]

is it always natural causes? could it not be result of some action, intentional or accidental on behalf of the mother or others? shouldn't we investigate, establish if there was any wrongdoing that lead to that miscarriage? seems odd to view abortion as murder then simply dismiss all miscarriage as natural.

If it is irresponsible actions that lead to the death of the baby, albeit unintentionally, then yes, I’d like to see them charged as such. Wouldn’t you?

 

[El Presidente]

What a strange comparison. No, of course not. If a baby sadly dies inside or outside of the womb from natural courses, it wouldn’t be manslaughter.

However if someone makes the decision to kill a baby, inside or outside of the womb, I would call it murder.

Since you mentioned miscarriage, if an unborn baby is “just a clump of cells”, then why do the pro-choice lot find miscarriages sad, but support abortion? Assuming you are pro-choice.

Perhaps they find abortions sad too but respect a woman’s right to choose?

 

[Withdean11]

Perhaps they find abortions sad too but respect a woman’s right to choose?

If they find it sad (which they should) they are recognising that it’s a life. If they respect a woman’s right to take a life they are morons.

 

[El Presidente]

If they find it sad (which they should) they are recognising that it’s a life. If they respect a woman’s right to take a life they are morons.

I guess I must be a moron then in your little world.

 

[Withdean11]

I guess I must be a moron then in your little world.

Well, if you believe in having the right to kill a baby, then moron is putting it lightly.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

is it always natural causes? could it not be result of some action, intentional or accidental on behalf of the mother or others? shouldn't we investigate, establish if there was any wrongdoing that lead to that miscarriage? seems odd to view abortion as murder then simply dismiss all miscarriage as natural.

I peeked and saw his 'murder' comment but he's long been on ignore (the home of the ignoramus) and not worth arguing with. See how he would feel if his wife or daughter was pregnant after being raped by someone with a nasty heritable disease. If he petitioned them to carry the child he nasty as well as thick.

Great thread, this

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Well, if you believe in having the right to kill a baby, then moron is putting it lightly.

Do you believe there are any circumstances where abortion would be justified?

 

[beorhthelm]

If they find it sad (which they should) they are recognising that it’s a life. If they respect a woman’s right to take a life they are morons.

what if they recognise its a sad event but dont recognise its a life?

 

[Eeyore]

I think this thread has gone beyond Bear Pit status already.

 

[El Presidente]

Well, if you believe in having the right to kill a baby, then moron is putting it lightly.

Many years ago a member of my extended family had a brief relationship with a man, she was 17 he was 35 (and also it later turned out, married with kids). She ended up pregnant due to contraception not working effectively. He dropped her like a stone as soon as he found out she was pregnant. I helped her organise an abortion, she couldn’t turn to her parents at the time, too ashamed, confused and frightened.

There was no celebration, no joy, plenty of distress and pain. She subsequently has gone onto university, a wonderful marriage with a great bloke and kids who were both planned, wanted and loved.

In your eyes however she’s a murderer (and presumably so am I for facilitating it, as well as being a moron).

I’ll happily take that rather than seeing her life ruined.

Have a nice day.

 

[dsr-burnley]

I think this thread has gone beyond Bear Pit status already.

It's inevitable. On stuff like Brexit, it isn't black and white - there is the possibility of compromise where pro-Brexiters could see their way to staying in the EU if circumstances are different, and pro-Remainers could see their way to leaving if the right deal is available.

In this case, anti-abortioners believe that an unborn baby is a human life worth saving. Pro-abortioners believe that an unborn baby is not a human life worth saving. There can't be any compromise.

Pro-abortioners believe that the foetus (if you like) is either not human, or not alive, or not worth saving. Or two o fthose or all three, but by definition that is what they believe. Anti-abortioners cannot accept that is true.

 

[smeariestbat]

A number of years ago, a young lady i slept with a couple of times got pregnant, but i didnt know at the time. I wore a condom, she was on the pill. The condom did not split, i know this ‘cause i’m always very careful about that kind of thing as an unwanted pregnancy is very near the top of my greatest fear list. We took up contact about a year after the event, and it was only then she informed me that she had gotten pregnant and had an abortion. Now i didnt know about the pregnancy, nor was i consulted about the resultant abortion. I feel i reacted well to the news, and said i supported her decision and reasons for terminating the pregnancy. had i been consulted at the time i would have agreed with her decision. We both had young kids from previous relationships and no intention of being together. She has gone on to get married and have a child with a great bloke, and i have gone on to get married and have two kids with a wonderful lady of my own. There are arguements for and against abortion. I cant say which is right or wrong, and i’m actually quite happy to not have the guilt of knowing i was involved in the decision making progress, even though i would have agreed.

 

[Eeyore]

A number of years ago, a young lady i slept with a couple of times got pregnant, but i didnt know at the time. I wore a condom, she was on the pill. The condom did not split, i know this ‘cause i’m always very careful about that kind of thing as an unwanted pregnancy is very near the top of my greatest fear list. We took up contact about a year after the event, and it was only then she informed me that she had gotten pregnant and had an abortion. Now i didnt know about the pregnancy, nor was i consulted about the resultant abortion. I feel i reacted well to the news, and said i supported her decision and reasons for terminating the pregnancy. had i been consulted at the time i would have agreed with her decision. We both had young kids from previous relationships and no intention of being together. She has gone on to get married and have a child with a great bloke, and i have gone on to get married and have two kids with a wonderful lady of my own. There are arguements for and against abortion. I cant say which is right or wrong, and i’m actually quite happy to not have the guilt of knowing i was involved in the decision making progress, even though i would have agreed.

I've never known quite what to feel about it. To label people as 'murderers' is to label friends of mine. There is something that gives me discomfort about abortion, I can't help that. It's an emotional not a logical reaction. My birth mother was too late to have me aborted at the time, but it didn't stop her trying to fake a miss-carriage.

I remember a friend telling me that her daughter had just had an abortion. Culturally the reasons made sense. I just didn't know what to say though as it upset me. But what I have never done is sit in judgement. I couldn't do that. There is so much emotion and complexity in people's lives. I'm not sure how someone could expect a person who is raped to carry through a pregnancy. But it seems there are some.

I'm comfortable feeling sad at hearing of abortions, and I'm equally comfortable not thinking of people as murderers and understanding how complex and individual each case is. But apparently that makes me an appeaser of murderers and a moron. I'm happy to accept that label too. Nothing is ever black and white.

 

[GT49er]

I think this thread has gone beyond Bear Pit status already.

Edited: thread back on track with some excellently expressed posts - not for bear pit (unless somebody comes and derails it; hope they don't.

 

[Baldseagull]

Exactly. I’m not religious, but abortion is murder.

At what stage of development do you consider abortion murder?
There is a strong link between violent crime, including murder, and the right of abortion. Murder and other violent crimes diminish 18 to 20 years after abortion becomes legal, it seems being born to a mother that didn't want you, can really **** you up.

 

[Baldseagull]

Manslaughter is the result of an action by someone else.

A miscarriage is natural.

Some bizarre comments in this thread from men.

Not all miscarriages are natural, a bottle of gin and a hot bath can do it, a kick in the stomach, and this and other desperate measures is what some women try if they can not get an abortion.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Not all miscarriages are natural, a bottle of gin and a hot bath can do it, a kick in the stomach, and this and other desperate measures is what some women try if they can not get an abortion.

If a bottle of gin and a hot bath was effective, we wouldn’t need doctors.

 

[drew]

I think abortion is murder.

Do a Google image search for “aborted foetus”. If you can look at those pictures and still say afterwards that it’s a woman’s right to choose and that it’s only a bunch of cells anyway, then there’s not much more I can say, really.

And in several countries laws are being introduced that allow for abortions up to nine months.

There are almost certainly likely to be extenuating circumstances in any late term abortion, normally the risk to the mother or, sadly, the viability of the baby.

 

[Baldseagull]

If a bottle of gin and a hot bath was effective, we wouldn’t need doctors.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't, sometimes a baby with the effects of fetal alcohol syndrome is born.
I have concerns about the length of term at which abortion is legal, but banning abortion outright is a terrible idea.

 

[beorhthelm]

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't, sometimes a baby with the effects of fetal alcohol syndrome is born.
I have concerns about the length of term at which abortion is legal, but banning abortion outright is a terrible idea.

like most law, it doesnt stop it happening. thats the most compelling reason for legal, medically guided abortion, it makes a traumatic event safe at least.