Parkig ticket, Lewes train Station.

[Manx Shearwater]

Good lord there's some good advice and terrible advice on here.

Let's start at the beginning.

A Council Ticket (or a police issued ticket): Backed by legislation (The Road Traffic Act), and under decriminalised parking Councils an the Police have the powers to issue fines. These tickets are usually handed out on public highways or council maintained car parks. They should NEVER be ignored, but should be appealed as most of them have some kind of flaw within them, and with the right advice you should always at least have a go at appealing.

A Private Ticket: No legislation covers this at all. They are completely reliant on contract law. They do not have the statutory authority to fine anyone. Let me get this straight, I would never condone taking advantage of a privately run car park offering a service to motorists. If they charge £x per hour then you should pay £x per hour. However, and this is the crux of the matter, if you contravene the terms and conditions, then, under contract law, you owe them their losses only (i.e. £x per hour), and I would advise you to pay them this.

What you DON'T owe them is some arbitrary charge they have made up (like £60 for example), as this is deemed - under contract law - to be a penalty charge and as such is unenforceable. They are also limited to pursuing the driver only for these charges, as the driver is the only person with whom the parking company can possibly have formed a contract by virtue of the signs on display. Now, if Meteor had written to the driver and asked for £x per hour, then the driver could have simply demonstrated that they have already paid (although the ticket was not displayed correctly). The private parking company cannot charge someone £60 for not displaying a ticket - those terms would be deemed unfair and again, a penalty.

However the fact that these companies do try to pursue drivers for waaaaay more than they are legally entitled to, means that I - as well as Lady Seagull and Westdene Seagull - would advocate that you ignore them.

They cannot clamp or tow for unpaid tickets (without first obtaining a court order and appointing a bailiff, and as part of that process the driver would have an opportunity to defend in court, and in all likelihood the driver would win). They cannot affect your credit rating (again, they ned a court judgement first), yet they will still send letters implying that they can do all this, and they will also repeatedly imply that the Registered Keeper is liable, when clearly it can only be the driver, which is not the action of an honest company trying to make an honest living in my opinion.

My advice would be to always pay charges for private car parks, but if you get a ticket and its for anything other than the parking fees due I would ignore it completely.

 

[BensGrandad]

Manx Shearwater you obviously know what you are talking about with that post. How does the situation change re private car parks or service roads to a shopping centre if clamped and not had a ticket issued. The fee for removing the clamp (£200) was paid could I reclaim the money via the county court.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Some of what has been written in this thread is rubbish and alot of the rest is nonsense. Ignore the ticket.

Whether you believe the ticket to be enforcable or not, is besides the point. A ticket has been issued as a result of a contravention, and the worst possible advice is to just ignore it and hope it will go away. And then to happily admit that you'll get up to 6 (SIX!) angry and strongly worded letters, but to ignore all that aswell... I just can't believe that advice from a seemingly intelligent enough person. If anybody chooses to heed that advice, be prepared for what comes with it.

I would suggest you know nothing about contract law then. Council tickets I give you would be a bad thing to ignore but private "tickets" are covered under contract law and most PPCs do not stick to contract law.

 

[Manx Shearwater]

You could, but as I think you mentioned in an earlier post, your problem is finding out who hired the clampers. Clampers routinely ignore CCJs, so if you sued them alone you would probably win, but not see hide nor hair of the money.

You do need to do some digging to see if you can find out who hired them. Ask the Supermarket manager if he/she knows, or find out the landowner from Land Registry (you can add the fee to your claim) and ask them if they know (usually a proerty management company).

Register on Pepipoo and start a thread on there, they will provide really good advice on how to put a case together. You have six years to bring a claim, although leaving a long gap might require you to answer a question to show it was reasonable to leave it for so long. Trying to trace the party who hired the clampers might be a reasonable excuse - it'd be down to the county court judge is my opinion.

Sorry - this is at Ben's Grandad!

 

[BensGrandad]

Assuming that the court found in my favour is there no way of enforcing the payment via a court order or could I call in Bailiffs to back a court order to obtain the money or at least threaten that.

 

[Manx Shearwater]

Typically clampers will operate without any fixed assets unrelated to their work. They'll have a truck and some clamps, and they'll be very hard to find (behind PO Boxes and so on). You can appoint a bailiff but odds on there'd be nothing to seize. That's why the advice is usually to go after the party that hired them as they are jointly and severally liable under "Principle and Agent" law.

 

[Garage_Doors]

Again Manx Shearwater you obviously know what you are talking about with that post.
How would us normal going public people recognise the difference between a Council & a private ticket.
I'm assuming the private ones would be made to look as authentic as possible ?

 

[BensGrandad]

I would think the obvious answer is the address of the appeals office. Why would a council allow a private company who are working for them to decide the merits of an appeal for which the council are ultimately responsible for enforcement and the payment of the charge. In West Sussex with police issued tickets you have to appeal to Shoreham and council ones show the appropriate council department eg Parking Office of Worthing Borough Council.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Again Manx Shearwater you obviously know what you are talking about with that post.
How would us normal going public people recognise the difference between a Council & a private ticket.
I'm assuming the private ones would be made to look as authentic as possible ?

The three main give-aways are :

1. The appeal address for a Council will mention the council name while a PPC "ticket" will be a private address ( in all likelihood a PO Box ).
2. A council ticket will mention under what act or law the ticket has been issued.
3. A council ticket will say "Penalty Charge Notice". PPCs can't use the word penalty so, while they do use the abbreviation PCN ( just to try and intimidate people into paying ) it will actually say "Parking Charge Notice"

 

[BensGrandad]

he one I am chasing the money back from for clamping shows the firms address as a company National Parking Management in London and they also say on their information notice should an appeal be succesful they will reply within 14 days and any refund will be returned. However it does say if lodging an appeal quote
1. Vehicle Registration/Model/Colour
2. Date of offense
3. Penalty reference.

This would suggest from the appeal address it was not council related but from No3 it was. I phoned the assumed land owners and a lady told me the parking was run by the council in Tunbridge Wells but when I said it wasnt it was private company operating on private land she agreed that the slip road to the Royal Victoria Shopping Centre, Coronation Parade, was a private road and it was operated by a private company. There was no indication of the law that had been broken it just said the action was taken in accordance with the conditions as displayed. I have now written to the assumed owners of the land and am awaiting clarification. It is all very confusing and I am sure it is designed that way.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

he one I am chasing the money back from for clamping shows the firms address as a company National Parking Management in London and they also say on their information notice should an appeal be succesful they will reply within 14 days and any refund will be returned. However it does say if lodging an appeal quote
1. Vehicle Registration/Model/Colour
2. Date of offense
3. Penalty reference.

This would suggest from the appeal address it was not council related but from No3 it was. I phoned the assumed land owners and a lady told me the parking was run by the council in Tunbridge Wells but when I said it wasnt it was private company operating on private land she agreed that the slip road to the Royal Victoria Shopping Centre, Coronation Parade, was a private road and it was operated by a private company. There was no indication of the law that had been broken it just said the action was taken in accordance with the conditions as displayed. I have now written to the assumed owners of the land and am awaiting clarification. It is all very confusing and I am sure it is designed that way.

Good on you pursuing it

The PPC may have broken the law then with point three. A private company has not right whatsoever to issue a PENALTY against someone ( the only exception being railway companies but that's only for fare dodgers ).

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Good on you pursuing it

The PPC may have broken the law then with point three. A private company has not right whatsoever to issue a PENALTY against someone ( the only exception being railway companies but that's only for fare dodgers ).

This legislation now applies to bus companies as well.

 

[Bad Ash]

So, what advice do you give if they (a private company) has clamped your car?

 

[BensGrandad]

Unless you dont need the car what choice have you but to pay and then chase them for a refund. I suppose you could use boltcutters to remove the padlock but you can then be charged with criminal damage

 

[LadySeagull]

So, what advice do you give if they (a private company) has clamped your car?

Firstly - just before certain 'overly-believing-in-what-they-think-is-authority' posters shout me down - can I say that it is not a criminal offence to remove a private clamp without damage. Even though some Police Forces seem to think it might be...the same Police who will say that 'it's a civil matter and any clamp is legit as long as there's a sign up' (apparently pretty much any sign and apparently with pretty much any tactics used, any amount of money demanded!). The Government has cited the woeful inaction by most Police Forces to protect the public from rogue clampers as one of the reasons they are to ban clamping soon.

So if clamped by a private firm on private land, and certainly if you are asked to pay more than a hundred quid, I would consider:


- If it's a motorcycle then NEVER pay for private clamp release. Obviously just remove the bike, clamp and all off that land and then take action to remove it undamaged (options below).

- Rattling the chain and trying to move the clamp off and up behind the wheel. Someone on pepipoo says they did, tied it underneath and drove slowly out, then removed the clamp on other land). Of course the clamper was no longer on site at the time.

- If there's time, having a look on youtube for how to open the padlock without damage - allegedly it has been done with a cut-up coca-cola tin or with a large paper clip.

- Cutting the clamp off at the chain or padlock, and then replacing the chain or padlock. Or cutting it off and defending any crim case (not for most of us, but success has been known, if it's your honest belief that the clamp was unlawful then I understand that you have recourse to a defence in law of taking reasonable steps to remove the 'trespass against goods' = the clamp on your car).

- Paying a locksmith to release the car rather than paying the scumbag clamper (could be cheaper and at least you are paying a real business-person).

- Paying a garage owner to lift the car, clamp and all to a safe place to remove (as above, money goes to a real business-person).

- If you or a friend have the mechanical skill, I believe some clamps can be removed by removing the wheel etc. A pepipoo poster did this, he was a van driver and then he handed the undamaged clamp in at a Police lost property the next day...hundreds of miles away...and sent a note to the clamping firm to confirm where it was and that it had been received/witnessed as undamaged!

- If clamped in your own work or flats car park, try putting pressure on the employer or managing agent to get it removed if you know you had authority to park there (such as if clamped in your own space at home where your lease covers you - any private permit contract is irrelevant if your lease allows you to park in your space and in fact the clamper would be trespassing).

- If forced to pay, use a credit card and then push VERY hard for a chargeback. A BHA fan whose car was unfairly clamped at Pompey did this - it's on pepipoo (poster is browneggsandham). He got half refunded by putting a LOT of pressure on the company who allowed known scumbag Jason White to be there, and he got the rest & his train fare expenses back from his credit card after a fight.

- If forced to pay, make a mental note of whether their SIA licence is on display and get pictures of the signage as soon as poss afterwards. Keep any receipt but do not prompt them for one. You will need the evidence of receipt, bad signage etc. for a Small Claim later - private clamping is very rarely reasonable, proportionate and well-signed enough to form a fair contract so a Small Claim is an option in almost every case.

- If forced to pay, ask them under what authority they are acting as you 'believe they are unauthorised'. Even get the Police out, certainly if intimidated like in the Pompey clamping case, and try to get the clamper to say/prove who contracted them. That's the people you need to be able to sue along with the clampers - and as Ben'sGrandad says, it's difficult to find out sometimes, later on.

- If forced to pay - even in cash - get on pepipoo and post about it here (link below). Certain posters may like to avert their eyes from this link as it has cases where apparently 'very stupid' people are - shock, horror, IGNORING FAKE PCNs from scam companies and it also has stickies which explain why that's the right thing to do:

FightBack Forums -> Private Parking Tickets Clamping

If a tow truck is called then take a note of the truck reg number and look to report it using the link here - as most are being used illegally in private clamping cases:

VOSA Contact Details - FightBack Forums

Ultimately it would involve threatening to sue, and then if need be, suing the clamper and whoever contracted them there, as they are jointly and severally liable and it is rarely the clamper who coughs up the money after a Court case. You'll see several ongoing current clamping cases just on the front page there, among the fake PCN cases.



HTH

 

[Manx Shearwater]

Sorry, been offline, I realise some questions were aimed at me, but have been answered already.

The main difference between a council ticket and a private one is that the council ticket will usually quote the relevant legislation on the front (Traffic Management Act or Road Traffic Act). However the PPC will usually mimic most of the other features of a council ticket, including things like contravention codes and the like. I've seen a few where the terms and conditions are simply cut and paste from a council ticket. Not that they're trying to dupe anyone, oh no.

A private ticket is essentially an invoice inviting you to pay a sum in relation to a breach of a contract term. In that respect, unless proven to be a genuine debt in a civil court (fat chance), it is completely unenforceable in law.

Also, the three points listed in Bens Grandads post about what to quote on appeal to clampers, I note they list 2. as 'Date of offence'. As this is civil law, no offence has ever taken place. Just thought I'd clarify yet more misleading language these companies use.

Almost all the paperwork I've ever seen from these private parking companies are designed to scare innocent motorists who have little knowledge of the law, into thinking they have broken the law in some way. They haven't. The monies they demand are a civil 'debt' brought about by one private company claiming that another private individual owes them money for breaching a contract. No law has been broken. Of course, the amount they invariably claim would be thrown out by a half decent county court judge which is why these companies rarely bring court action. They are happy to pocket the money from the 65% or so of intimidated and often scared members of the public who think they have fallen foul of the law and are anxious to avoid CCJs, bad credit rating, bailiffs turning up to seize their telly, and so on, little realising that this cannot actually happen without a civil court case first, which they would very likely win.

You can draw your own conclusions on whether this practice is immoral or not, I know what I think.

 

[Pinkie Brown]

Good on you pursuing it

The PPC may have broken the law then with point three. A private company has not right whatsoever to issue a PENALTY against someone ( the only exception being railway companies but that's only for fare dodgers ).

Its worth noting, no railway company has ever taken anybody to court for failing to pay a penalty fare. Like PPN notices, they're legally dubious when it comes to enforcement & the railway companies know this. They're shit scared of losing any potential test case. They rely on the usual scare tactics mentioned before.

Deliberate fare evasion is another matter, if it can be proved. If that's the case, you won't be invited to pay a penalty fare. As long as you offer to pay the correct single fare for your entire journey to any ticket inspectors, they cannot do you for fare evasion.

 

[LadySeagull]

Yep I think you are correct, pinkie brown.

But just as long as the OP of this thread realises by now that this isn't a penalty and was not issued by the train operating company anyway. So nothing will happen.

 

[ezmally]

No one is suggesting that the original poster pays any more than he has paid already. He is being recommended to contact Meteor and supply the evidence that he did pay to park. LadySeagull is advising that there is no point in doing this, because it is all a scam, and that he should front it out until the bitter end.

As I say, my experience of Meteor is that they behave like responsible car park managers, not scammers. If you have already paid to park, and you provide the evidence, they will accept this.

Apologies for the lack of response to the help and advice from everyone, very much appreciated. To keep it short, I e-mailed Meteor with a fairly brief explanation of what happened and also attached a picture of the ticket I purchased. They replied 2 days later with the following:

Thank you for your recent representations received 29 November 2011 with regard to the above parking charge notice.
We have considered your representations and the evidence provided carefully, and I am pleased to inform you that you do establish grounds or suitable reason for the cancellation of the parking charge notice.
This Parking Charge Notice has been issued as you have failed to display a valid ticket or voucher for parking. It is clearly stated within the terms and conditions of the car park if you fail to display a valid ticket at any time a parking charge notice will be fixed to your vehicle or handed to you.
I have investigated your appeal and considered your points raised and upon viewing a copy of your ticket, I am satisfied that the parking charge notice should be rescinded on this occasion.
Please ensure for future reference to clearly display a valid ticket for parking at all times, as further notices issued will be upheld and full payment for the parking charge notice will be requested.

Needless to say my ticket was displayed front and centre sunny side up today. Thanks again everyone

 

[Ninja Elephant]

The perfect conclusion to this thread, I'm glad to hear it was handled so quickly, Ezmally.