Panorama - BBC 10:15

[Gully]

The bizarre thing for me was that in Scotland we were sat in the office one day discussing where our families came from, I mentioned that my mother was from Dublin, without mentioning religion I was immediately cast as a Catholic by the Rangers supporting majority, a couple of them then regarded me as scum and treated me as such for the remainder of my time there. On the other hand I dated a girl who was from a Celtic daft family, when they found out that some of my family were Irish I was treated like a long lost son, again despite the fact that my religious beliefs were never divulged. Sadly Scotland is the most prejudiced country I have ever lived in, I have no wish to ever live there again.

 

[fatboy]

I was reading into it earlier as arguing with a mate and seems we are both wrong.

Seems the Union Flag is official flag of Northern Ireland.

The St George's cross with the hand on it is used by unionists and has not been officially recognised since 1973.

St Patrick's flag is the St Patrick's cross. Not sure where that fits in.

I'm confused.

 

[Cian]

The St Patricks Cross is an archaic flag for the entire island, same shape/layout as the Scottish Saltire but in red and white. Its *NEVER* used, by anyone.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

As someone who celebrated the victory of AC Siena over Fiorentina last Sunday with the words "Remember 1559" and who subsequently found an Italian website exhorting us to remember 4 September 1260 (in the same context), can I simply contrast the violence that permeates Celtic -v- Rangers games with the respect for historical traditions that I found in Italy?

Siena and Florence were independent nations until 1559, when the Florentine House of Medici succeeded in establishing itself as the Grand Duchy of Tuscany - which remained an independent state until Italian unification in 1870. The Sienese still "remember" their defeat in 1559, twice a year, at the Palio horse race which is run around the main square of the city. They also "remember" the Battle of Montaperti in 1260, when the army of the Sienese Republic inflicted a heavy defeat on the army of Florence.

But none of this provokes any violence or disorder today. Two formerly independent nations have no difficulty in considering themselves to be Italian.

Respect for history is an enriching thing. Recognition that the world has moved on is even more enriching. We are now Europeans, from nation states with histories that we should respect, whether Catholic or Protestant or neither, Irish, Scottish, Welsh or English (or - as most of us are - a mixture).

That bit of me that is Welsh is today celebrating an Irish victory against England. That bit of me that is English is seriously concerned that the World Cup winners are rapidly fading into oblivion. And that bit of me that is Irish is looking forward to the encounter that will settle the Six Nations championship.

God knows what my Scottish (Catholic and Protestant) ancestors would make of all that.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

The St Patricks Cross is an archaic flag for the entire island, same shape/layout as the Scottish Saltire but in red and white. Its *NEVER* used, by anyone.

So is the st patricks cross the red cross in the union jack? If so, why is it still in the union jack if it represents the whole of ireland?

Also, mildly unrelated, but does anyone know why the Union flag is also called the union jack?

 

[Yorkie]

So is the st patricks cross the red cross in the union jack? If so, why is it still in the union jack if it represents the whole of ireland?

Also, mildly unrelated, but does anyone know why the Union flag is also called the union jack?

Because it is flown from the Jack staff on a ship.

Other football teams were started as part of the religious divide.
Liverpool and Everton, Sheff Utd and Sheff Wednesday for example.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Because it is flown from the Jack staff on a ship.

Thank you!

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Martin O'Neill trying to edge around the fact that he really *won't* condemn the violence. If people like him won't, nobody will..

Never seen Martin O'Neill look so shifty and evasive during an interview

 

[Cian]

So is the st patricks cross the red cross in the union jack? If so, why is it still in the union jack if it represents the whole of ireland?

Also, mildly unrelated, but does anyone know why the Union flag is also called the union jack?

Because when we got independence in 1921, the UK refused to remove it as we were only a 'free state', and by 1948 when we became a republic, nobody gave a damn anymore.

Plus, there would be complaints from some at least if it was removed now.

 

[Tooting Gull]

The thing that struck me was how paralysed the clubs are about actually taking a strong lead in attempting to if not eradicate the bigotry (naive), at least temper it and send out the right signals.

The fact is that for both Rangers and Celtic, a full-on assault to root out the bigots would be a hugely unpopular move with their respective fan bases, and almost certainly hit them in the pocket either from ticket or merchandise sales. But they are in a hugely, perhaps the most influential position to change attitudes.

Both chairmen were clearly saying some 'right' things, but actually doing very little. At least they got to hear the views of teachers and hospital workers who have to deal with the effects first hand.

 

[fatbadger]

I DESPISE the Old Firm. Bigotry seeps out of their every pore. Not every fan, of course, but the clubs thrive on it, and the majority of the fans love it and play up to it. Scum.

 

[Bombardier]

Right, a fair topic of conversation. I am absolutely Celtic mad (after the Albion of course) but would not cross the road if I was to encounter a Rangers fan...far from it. There is a guy two doors down who is a Blue nose but we speak, offer assistance and have shared a pint or two. Now, I have experienced bigotry and came pretty close to being on the receiving end of the voilence seen last night. It happens and just glad that it's less prevelant here in England. The previous postie despises both sets of supporters......and probably rightly so. I would however, be careful to tar many of the so called supporters to the same brush. The problem is not a case of minority presiding over the majority...it's the culture and you have to be amongst it to really understand it.

It's no different to racism or sexism, it happens but how to eradicate it is the hard part.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I thought the show was interesting but, ultimately, weak.

The number of victims of sectarian violence following the match were nothing but guesstimates by hospital staff in civvy clothes. To have real credibility this show needed actual numbers going back over several years.

It seems to me that both Celtic and Rangers officials seem to have reached a common accord on dealing with the issue, which is to tolerate the songs sung by supporters in the grounds, but not to do anything that is seen to promote sectarianism. This seems reasonable, given the fact that the issue transcends football.

 

[Lammy]

That bit of me that is Welsh is today celebrating an Irish victory against England.

Are you sure?

That bit of me that is Welsh (i.e. the other half) was supporting England as Wales want to win the 6 nations.

 

[Lammy]

I thought the show was interesting but, ultimately, weak.

The number of victims of sectarian violence following the match were nothing but guesstimates by hospital staff in civvy clothes. To have real credibility this show needed actual numbers going back over several years.

It seems to me that both Celtic and Rangers officials seem to have reached a common accord on dealing with the issue, which is to tolerate the songs sung by supporters in the grounds, but not to do anything that is seen to promote sectarianism. This seems reasonable, given the fact that the issue transcends football.

Those figures simply don't exist. (maybe they should). When they are wheeled into A&E the staff don't tick a box saying was the injury a result of sectarian violence.

 

[looney]

A& E I thought would be quite reliable because there not professional political axe grinders.