Official Running Thread

[knocky1]

Park Run is a strange animal. For a few years I was addicted, ran decent times, made Friends who I would never have met, and felt great after a run awaiting the results with excitement.
Yet now I haven’t run it for over a year, never read their emails and have no plan to run it again.

I think the “change” was due to an injury that affected my times and knowing that I’ll never reach the standard that I had reached before the injury. I’m a bad loser!

When you’re ready recalculate your target times and get back out there. You’re racing yourself.
I’m 81 seconds down on my Parkrun PB from 2009, running the same AG and should do better!

 

[Badger]

It's interesting reading how we all run for different reasons and have different goals.

My reasons for running have very much evolved over the years. When I first started running in 2010 it was with the specific goal to see if I had it in me to complete the Brighton Marathon. I had a rough target around the 4 hour mark (I ended up doing 4:01) but it really just about training for it and finishing it.

Since I started running again about 3 years ago things have changed. It started off as a way of making friends in a new city. Then I decided I should enter a race so I did a half marathon and enjoyed it so much it gave me the bug to enter more races. After a couple of races I realised I was actually pretty fast, so I started really training for races and going for big PBs each time. The sub 3-hour marathon in February was definitely the peak for me. I put everything into training for that and it was all I was concentrating on for a few months.

I now feel like I've come full circle. I'm obviously running Boston next year, but I don't really have any drive to go for another marathon PB. I'm more than happy to have already set my best time. I'm back to running just for the social side of it, with the occasional tougher run to keep me in shape. I'm very wary of trying to keep it enjoyable.

 

[Artie Fufkin]

You post so rarely it's important to really shake the tree when you do!

Do you do many hard pace sessions? Or do you generally train under the pace you're intending to run an event at? When I was training for Brighton earlier this year, I was comfortably able to run at 7:00 - 7:30 per mile over the longer distance runs and then ran at 8:00 per for the recoveries. This training cycle I've not been quite so controlled with the pace so I've been running them slower, and then recovery runs at a slower pace to compensate. It has meant a huge step up in parkrun speed but it means I feel less confident I can run the full 26 miles in the pace I need to. Or, that I'll not be able to sustain the quicker pace once miles 22/23/24 etc roll around.

Haha! I'm very much a volume over pace advocate. The popular 80 / 20 weekly rule is good I think. 80% easy effort running with 20% harder or high intensity running for a given week. I think it depends on what a runner is training for but a standard week in a marathon training cycle for me consists of running once a day 6 days a week, averaging 60 miles a week - 1 rest day, 2 x "quality" days (1 intervals or tempo/lactate threshold run and 1 long run) and 4 easy days.

Easy effort run pace can vary depending on how I feel on the day and route (conditions, elevation etc.) but I try to make sure I don't go under 7:30.
Tempo/lactate threshold runs would be a range, just inside or outside half marathon pace, so around 5:50-6:45 range.
Intervals range would depend on the reps but usually around 5k-10k effort.
Long runs will usually be easy with a block of miles of marathon paced effort within the runs or a portion of in/out mile repeats (just under/just over marathon pace) when I feel I'm ready to incorporate them.
It's the frequency of the aerobic long runs that I find brings the biggest endurance improvement that translates into getting faster over time. I think for Manchester I ran 3 x 18 milers, 3 x 20 milers, 2 x 22 milers, 1 x 23 miler to try to get as comfortable as possible to running long. The endurance helped me to get faster.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

Haha! I'm very much a volume over pace advocate. The popular 80 / 20 weekly rule is good I think. 80% easy effort running with 20% harder or high intensity running for a given week. I think it depends on what a runner is training for but a standard week in a marathon training cycle for me consists of running once a day 6 days a week, averaging 60 miles a week - 1 rest day, 2 x "quality" days (1 intervals or tempo/lactate threshold run and 1 long run) and 4 easy days.

Easy effort run pace can vary depending on how I feel on the day and route (conditions, elevation etc.) but I try to make sure I don't go under 7:30.
Tempo/lactate threshold runs would be a range, just inside or outside half marathon pace, so around 5:50-6:45 range.
Intervals range would depend on the reps but usually around 5k-10k effort.
Long runs will usually be easy with a block of miles of marathon paced effort within the runs or a portion of in/out mile repeats (just under/just over marathon pace) when I feel I'm ready to incorporate them.
It's the frequency of the aerobic long runs that I find brings the biggest endurance improvement that translates into getting faster over time. I think for Manchester I ran 3 x 18 milers, 3 x 20 milers, 2 x 22 milers, 1 x 23 miler to try to get as comfortable as possible to running long. The endurance helped me to get faster.

Really appreciate your thoughts - I've been averaging 50-55 miles for the last 4/5 weeks with a couple of pace sessions, including parkruns but overall it's been volume over pace. Did you do more than one particularly long run per week? You mention the multiple long distance runs, were you doing a couple a week at any point in the plan?

 

[Artie Fufkin]

Really appreciate your thoughts - I've been averaging 50-55 miles for the last 4/5 weeks with a couple of pace sessions, including parkruns but overall it's been volume over pace. Did you do more than one particularly long run per week? You mention the multiple long distance runs, were you doing a couple a week at any point in the plan?

That's some really fantastic volume! Yeah getting in a parkrun as the hard effort is a perfect quality day I think. I really find it's the consistent aerobic base volume, stacking a good week after good week (and repeat) that brings the most progress and the top end hard efforts are the icing on the cake.

I would only do one long run each weekend as one of the 2 quality work outs per week. Gradually increasing in distance, so from around 15 miles up to 23 miles over an 18 week training programme (longer than most, although the first few weeks is low intensity aerobic base phase.) I think it's good to do a gradual step increase and do them multiple times to try to get them feeling comfortable before stepping up in distance, so something like 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, peaking at 23 for the final long run. These are super big efforts so recovery to let the body absorb the work is particularly crucial after these.
Depending on how I'm feeling I would run a "medium" long run in the week, say up to 12 miles, as one of my 4 easy days. I think it's good to be flexible, not to force fitness, let it come to you.

 

[dazzer6666]

Haha! I'm very much a volume over pace advocate. The popular 80 / 20 weekly rule is good I think. 80% easy effort running with 20% harder or high intensity running for a given week. I think it depends on what a runner is training for but a standard week in a marathon training cycle for me consists of running once a day 6 days a week, averaging 60 miles a week - 1 rest day, 2 x "quality" days (1 intervals or tempo/lactate threshold run and 1 long run) and 4 easy days.

Easy effort run pace can vary depending on how I feel on the day and route (conditions, elevation etc.) but I try to make sure I don't go under 7:30.
Tempo/lactate threshold runs would be a range, just inside or outside half marathon pace, so around 5:50-6:45 range.
Intervals range would depend on the reps but usually around 5k-10k effort.
Long runs will usually be easy with a block of miles of marathon paced effort within the runs or a portion of in/out mile repeats (just under/just over marathon pace) when I feel I'm ready to incorporate them.
It's the frequency of the aerobic long runs that I find brings the biggest endurance improvement that translates into getting faster over time. I think for Manchester I ran 3 x 18 milers, 3 x 20 milers, 2 x 22 milers, 1 x 23 miler to try to get as comfortable as possible to running long. The endurance helped me to get faster.

I can't run at anything like your kind of pace but the programme you describe is pretty similar to what my coach prescribes (depending on where I am in any particular training block). Biggest criticism I get from him (he says it's the same for most runners) is running 'easy' sessions too fast.......
I usually have a 'block' in the run-up to an 'A' race - can be anything from 4-16 weeks depending on the event. Otherwise we just lob in some short-term goals which could be as simple as pure maintenance of aerobic fitness for a while, a decent trail marathon, focus on speed for a few weeks etc etc. I'm not always working to a 'target' race and it's also important to have those spells where you take things a bit easy (especially at my age where bits start to fall off)

I've just had a 10 week block of mostly very slow stuff (including lots of hill-hiking, back to back weekend long runs etc) in the lead up to last week's 50 miler - as a result, been doing far fewer speed interval sessions (replaced them with hiking hill intervals - actually the intensity of the effort is the same), so speed has suffered quite a bit (will do a parkrun in the next couple of weeks purely to reset the benchmark for now). Will have a couple of easier weeks now before another 6 week block with loads more hill training as I've dropped another 50 mile race into my plan in November that looks horrific from an elevation perspective - again, means speed will continue to suffer a bit but it's critical to be working the right systems in training if there's a specific event in mind. Volume wise I've been averaging about 50/week for the last few weeks prior to a 2 week taper

It's a quite fascinating.....I think I'm getting to the point where I enjoy the training plan more than the race it's pointed at.............

 

[Artie Fufkin]

I can't run at anything like your kind of pace but the programme you describe is pretty similar to what my coach prescribes (depending on where I am in any particular training block). Biggest criticism I get from him (he says it's the same for most runners) is running 'easy' sessions too fast.......
I usually have a 'block' in the run-up to an 'A' race - can be anything from 4-16 weeks depending on the event. Otherwise we just lob in some short-term goals which could be as simple as pure maintenance of aerobic fitness for a while, a decent trail marathon, focus on speed for a few weeks etc etc. I'm not always working to a 'target' race and it's also important to have those spells where you take things a bit easy (especially at my age where bits start to fall off)

I've just had a 10 week block of mostly very slow stuff (including lots of hill-hiking, back to back weekend long runs etc) in the lead up to last week's 50 miler - as a result, been doing far fewer speed interval sessions (replaced them with hiking hill intervals - actually the intensity of the effort is the same), so speed has suffered quite a bit (will do a parkrun in the next couple of weeks purely to reset the benchmark for now). Will have a couple of easier weeks now before another 6 week block with loads more hill training as I've dropped another 50 mile race into my plan in November that looks horrific from an elevation perspective - again, means speed will continue to suffer a bit but it's critical to be working the right systems in training if there's a specific event in mind. Volume wise I've been averaging about 50/week for the last few weeks prior to a 2 week taper

It's a quite fascinating.....I think I'm getting to the point where I enjoy the training plan more than the race it's pointed at.............

Wise word all round dazzer! Am I right in thinking you mentioned a while back that your coach is the ultra legend James Elson from Centurion?

I think the #1 mistake runners make is running too fast on easy days. Me included. But I think I'm getting better at it. The best piece of advice I ever received when I asked a top coach a few years ago what I should do to improve and get faster he said "slow down, be consistent and be patient". Consistency and patience made sense but slowing down sounded bizarre. But it works.

If Eliud Kipchoge runs 8:00/mile on his recovery runs we are all going way too fast on ours.

The physiological benefits of aerobic easy effort running are huge. The body will thank you too. It doesn't like you taking it into the red and the risk of injury or burn out through high intensity stress outweighs the benefits. Yes higher intensity work is good in moderation as the body adapts to a change of stimulus but too much is a slippery slope. Here's a video from legendary distance running coach Jack Daniels on the benefits of easy aerobic low heart rate running. He explains it much better than me.

Sorry I'm known to bore people senseless with this kind of running talk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAQ73OJdwY

 

[dazzer6666]

Wise word all round dazzer! Am I right in thinking you mentioned a while back that your coach is the ultra legend James Elson from Centurion?

I think the #1 mistake runners make is running too fast on easy days. Me included. But I think I'm getting better at it. The best piece of advice I ever received when I asked a top coach a few years ago what I should do to improve and get faster he said "slow down, be consistent and be patient". Consistency and patience made sense but slowing down sounded bizarre. But it works.

If Eliud Kipchoge runs 8:00/mile on his recovery runs we are all going way too fast on ours.

The physiological benefits of aerobic easy effort running are huge. The body will thank you too. It doesn't like you taking it into the red and the risk of injury or burn out through high intensity stress outweighs the benefits. Yes higher intensity work is good in moderation as the body adapts to a change of stimulus but too much is a slippery slope. Here's a video from legendary distance running coach Jack Daniels on the benefits of easy aerobic low heart rate running. He explains it much better than me.

Sorry I'm known to bore people senseless with this kind of running talk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAQ73OJdwY

LOL - doesn't bore me, I love it even if I'm not that good at it. James (yes, Elson - he's very good, been using him for about 4 years now - it's not just the actual plan but anything related from nutrition, hydration, tactics and even the psychology) will often message me when he sees a strava upload with 'Well, you ****ed that up didn't you, was supposed to be an easy run' or similar. Like you I am getting better at it (or it might just look like that, perhaps I'm just getting slower ) but still have loads of runs where I kind of 'forget'. I also have a 'natural' pace that I find it difficult to slow down from (around 8.45/9 min miles on flat road) - I need to work on being able to run more like 10s really. Elson tells me I run most of my easy runs faster than he does........and he's a 2.45 marathoner and 14 hour 100 miler.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

Never apologise [MENTION=11816]Artie Fufkin[/MENTION] - or you [MENTION=27279]dazzer6666[/MENTION]! This is the one place where people are genuinely interested in what you're saying. From watching the video, I definitely think that I should have run some of the longer runs at a slower pace. As it goes, I turned down a pace session today in favour of a nice 7 miler at very easy pace, taking in the Promenade, Hove Park and Preston Park. I'm looking forward to seeing the map on Strava later.

 

[Artie Fufkin]

LOL - doesn't bore me, I love it even if I'm not that good at it. James (yes, Elson - he's very good, been using him for about 4 years now - it's not just the actual plan but anything related from nutrition, hydration, tactics and even the psychology) will often message me when he sees a strava upload with 'Well, you ****ed that up didn't you, was supposed to be an easy run' or similar. Like you I am getting better at it (or it might just look like that, perhaps I'm just getting slower ) but still have loads of runs where I kind of 'forget'. I also have a 'natural' pace that I find it difficult to slow down from (around 8.45/9 min miles on flat road) - I need to work on being able to run more like 10s really. Elson tells me I run most of my easy runs faster than he does........and he's a 2.45 marathoner and 14 hour 100 miler.

Must be great to have Elson in your corner dazzer!
Another nugget of wisdom that I picked up and try to remember is if on a normal easy day, once you've finished the run, if you don't think you could turn around and run it again then you've worked too hard on that easy run.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

Must be great to have Elson in your corner dazzer!
Another nugget of wisdom that I picked up and try to remember is if on a normal easy day, once you've finished the run, if you don't think you could turn around and run it again then you've worked too hard on that easy run.

Actually - that then raises another question - how many miles do you run on a recovery?

 

[dazzer6666]

Actually - that then raises another question - how many miles do you run on a recovery?

True recovery 30-40 mins max.......

 

[Ninja Elephant]

True recovery 30-40 mins max.......

Ah, so my hour long recovery runs are a little bit extreme. Very comfortable though, I do love a good 7 miler as well. That drops to 5 miles, so about 45 minutes when I'm not in any kind of training cycle.

 

[Artie Fufkin]

Never apologise [MENTION=11816]Artie Fufkin[/MENTION] - or you [MENTION=27279]dazzer6666[/MENTION]! This is the one place where people are genuinely interested in what you're saying. From watching the video, I definitely think that I should have run some of the longer runs at a slower pace. As it goes, I turned down a pace session today in favour of a nice 7 miler at very easy pace, taking in the Promenade, Hove Park and Preston Park. I'm looking forward to seeing the map on Strava later.

Thanks mate. I'm a bit of a running nerd when it comes to the sports science side to running and enjoy reading as much as I can but I'm always mindful that I might come across as a bit "preachy" to fellow runners. I would hate anyone to think that, it's just that running has changed my life so much for the better and I enjoy sharing things that I pick up as we're all learning as we go. I'd recommend checking out the other videos of the Jack Daniels running seminars and his book Daniels' Running Formula is considered the don of distance running training books.

The body will thank you for switching up the run for today! Trust the great amount of work you've already put in.

 

[dazzer6666]

Ah, so my hour long recovery runs are a little bit extreme. Very comfortable though, I do love a good 7 miler as well. That drops to 5 miles, so about 45 minutes when I'm not in any kind of training cycle.

An hour is an 'easy run', not a recovery run really..................for me recovery is more about just getting the legs gently moving after a hard/long session previously, flushing the lactate out etc. Pace-wise, though, easy and recovery should be more or less the same - 60-65% effort perhaps

https://www.fullpotential.co.uk/post/2016/11/15/easy-runs-recovery-runs

 

[Ninja Elephant]

Thanks mate. I'm a bit of a running nerd when it comes to the sports science side to running and enjoy reading as much as I can but I'm always mindful that I might come across as a bit "preachy" to fellow runners. I would hate anyone to think that, it's just that running has changed my life so much for the better and I enjoy sharing things that I pick up as we're all learning as we go. I'd recommend checking out the other videos of the Jack Daniels running seminars and his book Daniels' Running Formula is considered the don of distance running training books.

The body will thank you for switching up the run for today! Trust the great amount of work you've already put in.

I speak for myself and probably Dazzer as well - I love this stuff! It really adds a lot of valuable theory to something I spend many, many hours a week doing! Also, any man called Jack Daniels is absolutely fine by me, just in general.

An hour is an 'easy run', not a recovery run really..................for me recovery is more about just getting the legs gently moving after a hard/long session previously, flushing the lactate out etc. Pace-wise, though, easy and recovery should be more or less the same - 60-65% effort perhaps

https://www.fullpotential.co.uk/post/2016/11/15/easy-runs-recovery-runs

I think, by that standard, I've never done an actual recovery run! They've all been easy runs, on that sort of scale.

 

[Artie Fufkin]

Ah, so my hour long recovery runs are a little bit extreme. Very comfortable though, I do love a good 7 miler as well. That drops to 5 miles, so about 45 minutes when I'm not in any kind of training cycle.

Yep recovery runs would be up to around 30-40 mins. They're slow shake outs good for flushing out the blood lactate built up from a previous work out. I think it perhaps would help gauge it better if we all started calling them recovery jogs. Here's a cool video clip of Eliud Kipchoge on a shake out run. It's very very slow. He's jogging at best.

[tweet]1167013024001069058[/tweet]

 

[Mr Blobby]

Some interesting lunch time reading today. I think we all run for different reasons but mainly because we like getting outdoors and being able to run plus it helps to keep you fit & healthy (body and mind)

I avoided park run for a long time as "speed" isn't my thing, but I am competitive by nature so once I did one I have come back for more. Currently on 36 runs and 16 different courses plus 8 volunteer credits. I have loved travelling round to different park runs, its such a brilliant free event. The post race coffees are always enjoyable.

As to entering races, I love it, nothing beats a race day. As mentioned before I am now preferring trail runs to road runs, and this is definitely for me more about enjoying the challenge than getting a PB. I however do like to set myself a challenge to try and achieve a PB if possible. I did the Sarajevo HM last Sunday, but since my Ultra my pace is not great, so I enjoyed the run, the location and set myself a challenge of under 2 hours (my PB 1.47) and came in at 1.56 so was happy with that.

My final two big runs this year are this weekend with the Ragnar relay which is something totally new to me, 172 miles between 10 of us. Then my next marathon is Beachy Head which is about beating the hills not the time.

I guess for the last few years I have just loved running and trying out different events to challenge me. And as for long slow runs, took me ages to get the hang of dropping pace on recovery runs but it helped my achieve a marathon PB at Brighton this year. My next personal challenge is still that sub 4 hour marathon (14 minutes to find). The other big positive for me was joining a running club and meet so many new great people, many now how are friends as well as running buddies! Its also been great to do events like the weakest link with people from here, I find them a challenge as the slowest runner by a long way but find people genuinely supportive and encouraging, that's what its all about.

Happy running all x

 

[knocky1]

Some interesting lunch time reading today. I think we all run for different reasons but mainly because we like getting outdoors and being able to run plus it helps to keep you fit & healthy (body and mind)

I avoided park run for a long time as "speed" isn't my thing, but I am competitive by nature so once I did one I have come back for more. Currently on 36 runs and 16 different courses plus 8 volunteer credits. I have loved travelling round to different park runs, its such a brilliant free event. The post race coffees are always enjoyable.

As to entering races, I love it, nothing beats a race day. As mentioned before I am now preferring trail runs to road runs, and this is definitely for me more about enjoying the challenge than getting a PB. I however do like to set myself a challenge to try and achieve a PB if possible. I did the Sarajevo HM last Sunday, but since my Ultra my pace is not great, so I enjoyed the run, the location and set myself a challenge of under 2 hours (my PB 1.47) and came in at 1.56 so was happy with that.

My final two big runs this year are this weekend with the Ragnar relay which is something totally new to me, 172 miles between 10 of us. Then my next marathon is Beachy Head which is about beating the hills not the time.
x

Are you still doing Sofia Half October 13th? I’m currently ‘hanging’ around Transylvania but still unable to run due to back jarring. Doing some walking and hoping to still run it just to participate. Be there anyway as airBnB booked. ������

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Anyone running a prom based course would have been a bit battered today. A vicious easterly made my 22.19 a bit better than it looks. An age cat. 'victory' and overall 6th on AG out of 457. It was hard.