Norman Baker and the A27

[andybaha]

Driving home from work in Eastbourne tonight along the A27 I noticed there are more flowers beside the road at Selmeston. I assume this current loss of life is what caused the chaos on the A27 on Friday evening. It took me two hours to get home last Monday because of a serious accident at Wilmington, although fortunately no-one lost their life. There have been so many deaths on the stretch between Middle Farm and the Barley Mow that it's getting to the point where the newly bereaved will struggle to find a spot to park their flowers.

So does the A27 between Lewes and Polegate need upgrading? Not according to Norman Baker. The gospel according to St Norm is that in order to prevent global warming, in twenty years time no-one will be able to own a car and eventually the existing A27 will once again be able to cope with the reduced volume of traffic.
What a ridiculous idea to build a modern dual carriage way that will be safer, quicker and encourage investment in the area. Almost as stupid as building a football stadium near a main road and a railway station.

So I guess we had all get used the fact that it will frequently take us hours to travel 10 miles. However this is a mere inconvenience compared to family whose father, husband, brother etc won't be coming home this evening.

 

[¡Cereal Killer!]

The quicker Norman Baker is voted out the better
Why did anyone vote for him in the first place?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

What a ridiculous idea to build a modern dual carriage way that will be safer, quicker and encourage investment in the area.

The problem is that the Highways Agency has never come up with a proposal to dual the existing road. All that we have ever seen is the scheme from 1991 to build an entirely new road, without side access to local villages, in parallel with the existing road AND in parallel with the old, old A27 that was superceded in the seventies and eighties by schemes like the Firle Straight and the Comps Farm diversion.

Baker was quite right to oppose that scheme - as did almost all of us locals. Apart from anything else, it would condemn us to using the existing road that would remain unimproved and retain the hazards that are contributing to the dangers that you have highlighted.

My daily experience of this road is that the major cause of accidents (and near-misses) is the appalling standard of driving. Why do people insist on overtaking, when it's plainly not safe to do so?

What's needed (and what will eventually happen) is a series of smaller-scale improvements that will deal with road safety hazards effectively - just like the work done a couple of years ago on the Firle Straight itself, which has more or less eliminated dangerous overtaking manoeuvres and brought an end to the series of head-on collisions that were prevalent before the work was done.

Baker supports that programme, incidentally.

 

[Yorkie]

It's the main east/west trunk road through Sussex and should be dual carriageway all the way through.

 

[Brovion]

It's the main east/west trunk road through Sussex and should be dual carriageway all the way through.

Spot on. Junctions can be added later if they're required (like they've done with the M23 for Maiden Bower south of Crawley)

Won't happen though. We have the worst transport infrastructure in Europe and no one is prepared to tackle it and make hard decisions.

 

[Hunting 784561]

It's the main east/west trunk road through Sussex and should be dual carriageway all the way through.

Allelujah. Well said.

and better roads = better communications = more inward investment.

 

[adrian29uk]

There is no solution to easing congestion. It does not matter how many times you upgrade the roads the traffic will never get any better.

The only solution is for drivers to use Public Transport or if they live nr work cycle.

However no one is going to use Public Transport or cycle unless:

1) Public transport becomes cheaper
2) Buses are given priority over cars on the roads.
3) Proper cycle lanes are built

Nothing at the moment encourages drivers to get out of their car.

Over the last 10 years I have seen the roads get so busy, I dont know if you have noticed it too?

I can remember that 10 years ago there was only slight congestion toward brighton on the A259 from Peacehaven in the morning, now its a complete joke.

Newhaven, as soon as that bridge goes the traffic now tails back to Peacehaven, what with the modifications they made to the one way system in Newhaven this is also a complete and utter joke.

The A27 like you talk about. Too many cars?

The M25 too many cars.

If I cycle @ peak times I can beat the traffic to woddingdean and also beat the traffic too Newhaven.

This is how bad congestion is getting.

And yes other congestion is caused by the school run.

Children should walk to school if one of the parents are in a position where they dont need to work and they are within walking distance of the school.

 

[Gwylan]

There is no solution to easing congestion. It does not matter how many times you upgrade the roads the traffic will never get any better.

The only solution is for drivers to use Public Transport or if they live nr work cycle.

However no one is going to use Public Transport or cycle unless:

1) Public transport becomes cheaper
2) Buses are given priority over cars on the roads.
3) Proper cycle lanes are built

Nothing at the moment encourages drivers to get out of their car.

Over the last 10 years I have seen the roads get so busy, I dont know if you have noticed it too?

I can remember that 10 years ago there was only slight congestion toward brighton on the A259 from Peacehaven in the morning, now its a complete joke.

Newhaven, as soon as that bridge goes the traffic now tails back to Peacehaven, what with the modifications they made to the one way system in Newhaven this is also a complete and utter joke.

The A27 like you talk about. Too many cars?

The M25 too many cars.

If I cycle @ peak times I can beat the traffic to woddingdean and also beat the traffic too Newhaven.

This is how bad congestion is getting.

And yes other congestion is caused by the school run.

Children should walk to school if one of the parents are in a position where they dont need to work and they are within walking distance of the school.

Spot on. All that building more roads will do is increase the level of congestion.

But the level of investment in public transport is disgraceful. Nothing will shift people out of their cars until that is improved - and made cheaper.

The trouble is: everyone will make a case for why his or her car journey is absolutely essential and how it should be the other people who stop driving.

In a similar fashion, people talk about "dangerous roads" when there are no such thing; just dangerous drivers - who are of course, other people, as no-one admits to being a bad driver himself.

And as for sending kids to their local schools, that makes total sense to most people - except Brighton and Hove council, which is trying to push through a madcap scheme to send schoolchildren to far-flung schools in the city.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Re: Re: Norman Baker and the A27

My daily experience of this road is that the major cause of accidents (and near-misses) is the appalling standard of driving. Why do people insist on overtaking, when it's plainly not safe to do so?

I've made that more general point on here before. I think that particular discussion was one where others were saying all the roads' ills were purely down to speeding, while I was contending excessive speed is only one of many forms of terrible driving that are becoming ever more commonplace. And I do genuinely believe that some drivers are far more lethal at 50mph than others on an empty road at 80.

What you do about it is another matter. As has been said earlier, no one thinks its them. Is it that the test is somehow easier - or that people get into bad habits so quickly that refresher tests are a must?

I was talking with my other half about doing an advanced driving course the other day - but the main disincentive to splashing out the cash is the experience of my brother-in-law. He did it, and says it doesn't make a blind bit of difference because of what everyone else is doing. If it carries on like this, we'll be as bad as the French. And then we'll really be in the 'merde'.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Its quite interestimng that the M25 was extended to 5/6 lanes from the M3 junction to the M4 junction in an effort to ease conjection and its actually got worse, as everyone has just moved one lane to the right, ....the left hand lane is now used by those wishing to use the A30 to Staines/Hounslow, which is great and how it should be.

I would ban all artic lorries from lanes 4 and 5 as well as 6 as they do in Europe.

I am all in favour of having toll roads, like they do in France. Driving outside towns in France is a joy, just jump on a toll road and you can drive for miles without hold ups. The M6 toll road is always used and works very well.


The problem with Sussex roads are that they are so bits and pieces....you travel on a decent dual carriage way like the A27 around Brighton and then get stuck on a single carriage f*** up round Worthing.

Its all very well environmentalists saying we should all get out of our cars and use public transport ( like we will have to do at Falmer) but that is like giving a child a new train set and take it away from him and give him a hoop and a stick to play with. we all know cars/lorries are damaging the environment, but when someone tries to stop you doing something that is convenient, easy and comfortable, they have no chance.

For the first time in yonks I ended up parking around Withdean on saturday as I wanted to be home for the Rugby...ok it took a while to get out of valley road, but I was home in 20 minutes..

 

[adrian29uk]

End of the day like I said in my previous thread I cannot see the roads getting any better no matter what road improvments are made. We are so reliant on our cars.

I do try my best to make short journeys on my bike, it is honestly quicker. But then you have to be careful for motorists not looking where they are going, and driving withwhilst speaking on a mobile phone.

Whether we like it or not the goverment will push through the proposals for pay as you drive in the hope people will get out of the cars.

But the goverment know people wont, so they will just make more and more money out of the motorist by doing this. More speed cameras and humps will be added, road tax will be raised, the MOT fee will also increase its a win win situation for the goverment.

A car is becoming an expensive mode of transport.

 

[Skint Gull]

Re: Re: Norman Baker and the A27

What's needed (and what will eventually happen) is a series of smaller-scale improvements that will deal with road safety hazards effectively - just like the work done a couple of years ago on the Firle Straight itself, which has more or less eliminated dangerous overtaking manoeuvres and brought an end to the series of head-on collisions that were prevalent before the work was done.

Sorry LB, i don't normally disagree with you but I'm afriad I'm going to here. Since the STUPID modifications along Firle straight there have been at least 2, possibly more fatal accidents just a bit further up towards Selmeston because people got impatient at not being able to overtake the TITS doing 45 along the straightest piece of road in probably the whole of East Sussex!

This previous idea you have spoken of was well before my time of driving so I don't know the ins and outs of it but surely if a dual carraigeway was built that didn't stop at Selmeston, Berwick and other small villages, surely the road would just be empty and nice and easy for locals to use safely? Nobody in their right mind would use that road if there was a straighter faster route direct from Lewes to Polegate!

 

[Moshe Gariani]

Does anyone know exactly where the accidents at "Selmeston" usually happen...?

I play cricket at Selmeston and turning off and on to the main road always requires extra care and I sometimes think that an accident could result from poor judgement... but is it on that corner that the accidents happen?

or do people somehow try and overtake between there and the turning for Charleston?

I've noticed the "bumpy road - suggested limit 50mph" signs... are they there becuase some accidents are due to drivers / motorcyclists simply losing control through driving too fast...?

 

[Rougvie]

Its quite interestimng that the M25 was extended to 5/6 lanes from the M3 junction to the M4 junction in an effort to ease conjection and its actually got worse, as everyone has just moved one lane to the right, ....the left hand lane is now used by those wishing to use the A30 to Staines/Hounslow, which is great and how it should be.

Wouldnt agree, I do Gatwick - Heathrow once/twice a week and its got a hell of a lot better, although I am only too aware it will be short term.

The Dutch have the right idea, NO lorries in any other lane than inside from 07:00 - 09:30 or its an automatic fine, it would also drastically reduce the fatalities caused by lorry drivers blindly pulling out because they are so used to driving on cruise control that they find the concept of braking alien to their pea brains.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Wouldnt agree, I do Gatwick - Heathrow once/twice a week and its got a hell of a lot better, although I am only too aware it will be short term.

The Dutch have the right idea, NO lorries in any other lane than inside from 07:00 - 09:30 or its an automatic fine, it would also drastically reduce the fatalities caused by lorry drivers blindly pulling out because they are so used to driving on cruise control that they find the concept of braking alien to their pea brains.

Coming back from the A30 to m25 to the M23 is always crap. I tend to leave at around 4:30 or 6 pm and both times are awful. I only tried 5 o/clcokc once and sati by the M3 junction for 25 minutes

 

[Brovion]

Re: Re: Re: Norman Baker and the A27

This previous idea you have spoken of was well before my time of driving so I don't know the ins and outs of it but surely if a dual carraigeway was built that didn't stop at Selmeston, Berwick and other small villages, surely the road would just be empty and nice and easy for locals to use safely? Nobody in their right mind would use that road if there was a straighter faster route direct from Lewes to Polegate!

A lot of it is the legacy of road building in the 1960s. When other nations were developing a decent transport infrastructure Britian was going the other way. We closed down railways and apart from London-centric motorways all other road development was piecemeal - a by-pass here, a bit of widening there. Typical British muddle-headed, short-term thinking. The A27 is blighted with cheap option 1960s schemes along it's entire length. Worthing, Lancing, Arundel and Chichester will be swamped by rising sea-levels long before Sussex gets a decent transport infrastructure.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Does anyone know exactly where the accidents at "Selmeston" usually happen...?

I play cricket at Selmeston and turning off and on to the main road always requires extra care and I sometimes think that an accident could result from poor judgement... but is it on that corner that the accidents happen?

or do people somehow try and overtake between there and the turning for Charleston?

I've noticed the "bumpy road - suggested limit 50mph" signs... are they there becuase some accidents are due to drivers / motorcyclists simply losing control through driving too fast...?

Most of the current spate of accidents seem to happen close to the big layby and the curve between the Charleston Farmhouse entrance and the Barley Mow - where some drivers seems to delude themselves that it's safe to overtake.

The turning into Selmeston Village by the Barley Mow seems to have remarkably few serious accidents - maybe because it's bleedin' obvious that it's a hazardous junction and corner.

As for Skint Gull's comment about the Firle Straight safety measures leading to more fatalities a mile down the road, because people are frustrated at not having been able to overtake ... this is a point of view I don't share.

I do, however, take issue with the suggestion that people have some sort of "right" to overtake and that drivers who don't drive up to the speed limit merit the label "TITS".

 

[Albion Rob]

From an environmental standpoint, I struggle to believe that building a dual carriageway and cars going on it will be worse than what I and hundreds of others used to do in the morning and that was take an hour in stop/start traffic to get from Drusillas roundabout to the dual carriageway the other side of Beddingham crossing.

It seems bizarre that is takes 100 minutes on a good run to get to Portsmouth yet it takes less than an hour to get from Worcester to Leicester, which is a couple of miles further.

I agree with others though on this overtaking lark - get home 15 minutes later or take the chance that I'll kill myself, someone else or main everyone? I know which I would choose.

 

[Gully]

There are two million uninsured vehicles on the road, give the Police the powers and resources to remove them and congestion would ease considerably, they should not be there (the vehicles, not the Police).

 

[Monkey Man]

It's the main east/west trunk road through Sussex and should be dual carriageway all the way through.

At the expense of all the villages, hamlets and countryside that would have to be bulldozed to make way for it, presumably.

If you want that sort of infrastructure go and live in the West Midlands. I'll put up with some transport inconvenience if it means preserving what rural character we've got.