[Finance] Non Fungible Tokens - NFTs

[Tyrone Biggums]

Is the club struggling with people counterfeiting paper tickets?

It's quite a common thing still for fans to not be able to get tickets to events because modern day touts still exist.

 

[HeaviestTed]

It's quite a common thing still for fans to not be able to get tickets to events because modern day touts still exist.

NFT’s won’t stop ticket touts

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

NFT’s won’t stop ticket touts

You can't counterfeit an NFT ticket. They are also far easier to track where they have come from.

It's easy to hand over a paper ticket. Hell of a lot harder to transfer an NFT.

 

[Happy Exile]

I've really struggled to get my head round what NFTs are so thanks for providing some examples, makes it somewhat clearer - still don't see the appeal on most of the things you've described, but that could be an age thing!

However, in your above example of film industry - once the initial sale of a film had taken place and a critical mass of "second hand" NFTs are available, wouldn't that mean no-one would ever bother buying it new?

With a hard copy there can be degradation in quality, which means it is still attractive to buy new, but I can't see that with a digital copy?

I'm probably missing something though!

You're not missing anything I don't think. It just means there'll be different ways to attract people to buy new. In the same way we ended up with a million different VHS versions of Star Wars with extra features, director's cut, digitally remastered, and so on there might be different versions of the film so people buy a new one rather than do a transfer of someone's digital asset.

Something I read about Web 3.0 games is that early adopters are being rewarded. So you buy your game / film / ticket whatever, and if you hold onto it you get occasional "drops" that both reward your early uptake and encourage you to keep hold of it (so then people buy new because the secondary market is so small). Films might end up the same. If you are the original purchaser you might end up entitled to benefits - early cinematic previews, cheaper copies of sequels and so on which are restricted to the original purchaser so might encourage you to hold on.

While NFTs as investment get a bad press (rightly in 99.9% of cases I think) they do provide new funding models, again for films as an example: buy an NFT as part funding of a film and get a copy of the film and a share of royalties after all through that token. It's been suggested and might already be happening. Same with albums - we all know about crowdfunding for projects and this is a much "purer" model of raising money with the benefit of potentially lifetime revenue through onward secondary market sales.

 

[chickens]

Take part in competitions/promotions. Also allow fans to take part in club decisions, to take part in a vote on something.

A Governance aspect of the token.

Thank you (and @sydney) for responding, but again none of those things require NFTs, they happen now.

What are the advantages to using NFTs? Why would I turn my perfectly liquid exchangeable currency into something that can only be used with one merchant? (E.g. A football club) Is this not a glorified gift card?

Do these NFTs have a fixed exchange rate? We seem to be back to digital currencies again, which I had previously considered separate/distinct from NFTs. The entire infrastructure feels like a circle jerk of mob/venture-capital funded solutions looking for a problem.

What is the overwhelming advantage of buying merchandise from a football club using an NFT over using, say, a debit card. From either the consumer or the merchant POV?

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but if there is something more than coked up hubris in this, I’d like to understand it, but I’ve seen the zealots come and go on this, without anyone ever being able to give meaningful answers on these things.

As far as I’ve been able to tell it’s god’s gift to money laundering with no tangible improvement on legitimate business as already being practiced. The sheer volume of rug pulls and wallet drains reported weekly have been enough to keep me well outside.

 

[Happy Exile]

NFT’s won’t stop ticket touts

They might do - they'll definitely make it harder for them. For example an NFT can have a price cap set by the original seller and can't be transferred for higher (every sale and value is recorded as part of the transfer). Obviously there can be a bank transfer going on behind the scenes to mask how much is spent but that makes it a different proposition for both the buyer and seller.

You can also lock a ticket to the original purchase device and need the selling company to be responsible for transferring it. So resale could be made to only happen with neither the buyer or seller ever knowing who the other is or communicating directly but all via the selling agent/company (who would of course charge a fee, but a lot less than a tout mark-up) - there's no way around that for touts.

You don't need to be Ticketmaster to do either of those things - it's more accessible technology than people realise I think,

 

[Wardy's twin]

Governments can make your plain old normal currency worthless. They can also dictate what you can and can't spend your money on.

With the rise of the CBDCs narrative people need to wake up to where Governments are pushing their power and influence towards.

Government's can make your money valueless but if they do that they won't exist for long and you fall into a state of anarchy. Not sure what CBDCs are. What i would be ore concerned with is the power of individuals like Musk who has no mandate and yet has been endorsing 'alternative' finance options e.g. crypto.

 

[Wardy's twin]

I know a bit about them, personally have no interest but can see how they will very possibly take off through sports and football. As a simple example, tickets for games held in an NFT wallet (all technology that already exists) become unique collectables with resale value in the same way paper tickets of the past were.

One area of value for a club comes in offering different NFTs for different games - a pre-season friendly that only attracts 8,000 fans normally might now attract 20,000 if every ticket comes with a Mitoma collectable NFT with potential high resale value, or just from people that want to collect a set by going to every game in a season. Now tie that in with something like FIFA - go to a game and get a Mitoma NFT that boosts his speed in a game by X points and again the use cases grow...NFTs support the original creators also getting revenue from the secondary market. I don't play FIFA, I sell my Mitoma-boost NFT for £10 on the NFT marketplace and the club could get a % of that too.

There's a lot of stuff about films too - download a film on Prime or Sky and you don't own it once your subscription ends. An NFT would mean you could continue owning it because it'd be a unique copy assigned to you, and you could re-sell it too, recreating the secondary market of physical DVDs. The film industry will love this because an NFT would also support them getting some of the revenue from that ongoing sale.

I'm not far off 50 and see no appeal at all to it for me. I don't doubt for a second the market is there though. There's around a billion USD a month in sales already and most of us don't even have any exposure to them yet. Characters in Fortnite that anyone can create and sell without losing control of it and finding it copied everywhere, skins for games, music - there's a lot that's going to be changed by NFTs over the next few years.

What's a collectable Mitoma NFT

Are you saying that if I buy a film on Sky /Netflix/Amazon then that you won't be able to play it when you leave.... if that is the case don't by it and given the majority of people are now trying offload Cds and DVDs is there a market for permanent ownership of such item?

 

[HeaviestTed]

You can't counterfeit an NFT ticket. They are also far easier to track where they have come from.

It's easy to hand over a paper ticket. Hell of a lot harder to transfer an NFT.

You can’t counterfeit it if you also include things like validating peoples identity when they walk through the turnstiles.

I don’t want to live in a world where we show passports to go to watch the football just so we can use nft’s

 

[HeaviestTed]

They might do - they'll definitely make it harder for them. For example an NFT can have a price cap set by the original seller and can't be transferred for higher (every sale and value is recorded as part of the transfer). Obviously there can be a bank transfer going on behind the scenes to mask how much is spent but that makes it a different proposition for both the buyer and seller.

You can also lock a ticket to the original purchase device and need the selling company to be responsible for transferring it. So resale could be made to only happen with neither the buyer or seller ever knowing who the other is or communicating directly but all via the selling agent/company (who would of course charge a fee, but a lot less than a tout mark-up) - there's no way around that for touts.

You don't need to be Ticketmaster to do either of those things - it's more accessible technology than people realise I think,

This won’t work in the real world. If you lock to a purchasing device, I can’t buy a ticket at work without bringing the server I bought it on to the turnstiles .

When you need to cross from the digital to the real world, the entire premise of NFT’s falls over.

 

[HeaviestTed]

You can have an NFT that says you own whatever and you can pay whatever you want for it but it doesn’t actually exist. It’s like the old “buy an acre of the moon” certificates or the ones that say you own a star, you don’t.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Thank you (and @sydney) for responding, but again none of those things require NFTs, they happen now.

What are the advantages to using NFTs? Why would I turn my perfectly liquid exchangeable currency into something that can only be used with one merchant? (E.g. A football club) Is this not a glorified gift card?

Because your perfectly liquid exchangeable currency isn't accepted to take part in those clubs promotions. Up to you if you want to take part in it.

Do these NFTs have a fixed exchange rate? We seem to be back to digital currencies again, which I had previously considered separate/distinct from NFTs. The entire infrastructure feels like a circle jerk of mob/venture-capital funded solutions looking for a problem.

No, they can go up and down. Like all asset classes.

What is the overwhelming advantage of buying merchandise from a football club using an NFT over using, say, a debit card. From either the consumer or the merchant POV?

Well you'd buy an NFT from the club, or they would airdrop them to select fans. If those NFTs are limited then their value can rise or fall in value. Like any tradable asset.

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but if there is something more than coked up hubris in this, I’d like to understand it, but I’ve seen the zealots come and go on this, without anyone ever being able to give meaningful answers on these things.

As far as I’ve been able to tell it’s god’s gift to money laundering with no tangible improvement on legitimate business as already being practiced. The sheer volume of rug pulls and wallet drains reported weekly have been enough to keep me well outside.

Fine art is one of the biggest money laundering spaces out there. Do you hear anyone spouting off about that? Why not the outrage?

The difference is it's actually often easier to track down people attempting to launder in the crypto space because wallets are visible to all. You and I can go and look at what some billionaire is buying in the crypto space once the smart cookies have discovered their wallet address. Which isn't that hard to do for the techy types.

Governments are getting very good at being able to track this sort of thing.

 

[chickens]

Government's can make your money valueless but if they do that they won't exist for long and you fall into a state of anarchy. Not sure what CBDCs are. What i would be ore concerned with is the power of individuals like Musk who has no mandate and yet has been endorsing 'alternative' finance options e.g. crypto.

Absolutely, governments are the one bit of our society that we (nominally) have an element of control over. The idea is that they are supposed to organise society to its advantage.

The brief reign of Liz Truss shows what happens to a government that messes with the worth of its own currency, and we do periodically get to change government. (albeit for something very similar)

If digital currencies were a panacea to currency manipulation, how come the pump and dump strategy is still alive and well in crypto?

Nicole Behnam pumps and dumps: "There were mistakes made in a wallet that I controlled"

New passive voice Hall of Fame contender just dropped: "There were mistakes made in a wallet that I controlled." You would think someone who got their start as a writer might know better.Writer, journalist, and now web3 influencer Nicole Behnam helped pump Dogecoin founder Billy Marcus' new...

web3isgoinggreat.com

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

This won’t work in the real world. If you lock to a purchasing device, I can’t buy a ticket at work without bringing the server I bought it on to the turnstiles .

When you need to cross from the digital to the real world, the entire premise of NFT’s falls over.

You aren't locked into a device. You can be locked into a digital wallet that others can't access.

The real world has already moved in that direction. Apple Pay, Google Pay etc.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You can’t counterfeit it if you also include things like validating peoples identity when they walk through the turnstiles.

I don’t want to live in a world where we show passports to go to watch the football just so we can use nft’s

You're not going to like the future then.

 

[beorhthelm]

Thank you (and @sydney) for responding, but again none of those things require NFTs, they happen now.

What are the advantages to using NFTs? Why would I turn my perfectly liquid exchangeable currency into something that can only be used with one merchant? (E.g. A football club) Is this not a glorified gift card?
...

yes to be fair. you are touching on a problem, there is a lot of claims not substantiated, or dont need crypto solutions. however this stems from misunderstanding, and the prominence of "NFT" to mean one thing, especially dodgy picture markets, when all it is really is some technology. like most technology its the implementation that gives real value. it's like criticism of early internet, or saying emails a bad idea because of "Nigerian Prince" scams.

many uses of NFT are no different or slight variations on existing practices, which is where i usually come in, people think they dont want something because its in an NFT named wrapper. a ticket to Amex is logically the same as an NFT as it's not fungible (identical, exchangable for another), and a form of token. it's also important that NFT are blockchain related, with an assumption there is some smart contract. the example of Goblintown illustrates risks and misunderstanding, if done correctly the images should be stored on a blockchain indefinately. other examples show how rights and revenues can be guranteed.

its all rather dependent on the implementation though, and so far this thread has shown too many misunderstands from chaotic, wild west of early adoption. we have an acronym with a half dozen different meanings, which hide a lot different concepts and tech we aren't all familar, so its probably not ready for public. before we even get onto the term "web3".

 

[chickens]

Because your perfectly liquid exchangeable currency isn't accepted to take part in those clubs promotions. Up to you if you want to take part in it.



No, they can go up and down. Like all asset classes.




Well you'd buy an NFT from the club, or they would airdrop them to select fans. If those NFTs are limited then their value can rise or fall in value. Like any tradable asset.





Fine art is one of the biggest money laundering spaces out there. Do you hear anyone spouting off about that? Why not the outrage?

The difference is it's actually often easier to track down people attempting to launder in the crypto space because wallets are visible to all. You and I can go and look at what some billionaire is buying in the crypto space once the smart cookies have discovered their wallet address. Which isn't that hard to do for the techy types.

Governments are getting very good at being able to track this sort of thing.

Thank you for responding. I’m afraid I remain profoundly unconvinced.

On the day that my club decides that my regular exchangeable currency of the realm is no longer good enough for it, I will look again at NFTs.

Until such a time, I wish those who are investing in such items good fortune, be careful out there.

 

[Happy Exile]

What's a collectable Mitoma NFT

Are you saying that if I buy a film on Sky /Netflix/Amazon then that you won't be able to play it when you leave.... if that is the case don't by it and given the majority of people are now trying offload Cds and DVDs is there a market for permanent ownership of such item?

Reading this thread makes me think of AI - ChatGPT is getting the news and generating waves but it's already quite old hat compared to what's coming through now. If people have their minds blown by that then they won't believe some of what's being tested and even in use. There's a thing I heard before about how if you read something about technology on Facebook or Twitter or LinkedIn or a newspaper then it's probably already superseded. That so true about AI, and it's as true about NFTs - it's already happening, just not in the world I, or probably most of us, inhabit yet.

As William Gibson says, the future is already here it's just not evenly distributed.

A collectable Mitoma NFT could be anything digital. A virtual collector card. A film. An interview. A nice picture. When one of the Spiderman films came out AMC cinemas in the US did NFTs for the first X thousand people to buy a ticket. Just little animations. It was proof of concept rather than an attempt to create anything special really, and most aren't worth more than a couple of dollars to anyone, but each is individually numbered and the people who got "collectable" numbers (888 for example) have done decently out of it for something given to them free. Because people already collect NFTs and have wallets and galleries to display them and they trade them. When the metaverse properly gets traction (recent estimate over $160 billion revenue within 7 years) people will have NFTs as virtual art in their virtual houses. Again, not for me, but the market is there already and thriving and growing.

And yep, films you buy on Amazon or Sky are licenced to you for the length of your subscription only. Offloading CDs and DVDs is perhaps partly due to not wanting permanent ownership, but also storage, lack of devices to play them, and many houses now streaming instead. Plenty of people still want permanent ownership, just in a different format to what we had previously I think.

 

[Seagull27]

You're not missing anything I don't think. It just means there'll be different ways to attract people to buy new. In the same way we ended up with a million different VHS versions of Star Wars with extra features, director's cut, digitally remastered, and so on there might be different versions of the film so people buy a new one rather than do a transfer of someone's digital asset.

Something I read about Web 3.0 games is that early adopters are being rewarded. So you buy your game / film / ticket whatever, and if you hold onto it you get occasional "drops" that both reward your early uptake and encourage you to keep hold of it (so then people buy new because the secondary market is so small). Films might end up the same. If you are the original purchaser you might end up entitled to benefits - early cinematic previews, cheaper copies of sequels and so on which are restricted to the original purchaser so might encourage you to hold on.

While NFTs as investment get a bad press (rightly in 99.9% of cases I think) they do provide new funding models, again for films as an example: buy an NFT as part funding of a film and get a copy of the film and a share of royalties after all through that token. It's been suggested and might already be happening. Same with albums - we all know about crowdfunding for projects and this is a much "purer" model of raising money with the benefit of potentially lifetime revenue through onward secondary market sales.

Thanks - that crowdfunding model does actually sound very interesting, especially if the crowdfunders could obtain revenue through onward sales.

 

[beorhthelm]

Government's can make your money valueless but if they do that they won't exist for long and you fall into a state of anarchy. Not sure what CBDCs are. What i would be ore concerned with is the power of individuals like Musk who has no mandate and yet has been endorsing 'alternative' finance options e.g. crypto.

CBDC - central bank digital currency. they are governments going 100% digital money, and they absolutly do not need any cryptocurrency. it's simply government applying blockchain concept to control issuance, transfer and tracking of money. it gives them some more control, in some scenarios it can mean social control, at another it could mean never having bad debt, or repeat of 2008 credit crunch.