Neville's Breakfast
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[Football] Newcastle fans and YouTuber support Saudi, confront protesters
- Thread starter Guinness Boy
- Start date
Dreary me, it's all getting rather desperate. So, just what was the purpose of you stating that 'there are many examples of people giving money to Saudi state owned businesses' in relation to you doing the same?
Your beef, as per your post, included only qualifying for Europe once in 14 seasons. That, my friend, is entitlement 101.
I think he’s unaware of the reality of the footballing landscape changing immeasurably during Ashley’s tenure. The rise of Chelsea, then Man City. The establishment of the closed shop of the “big 6”. He seems to think Newcastle should have been competing with them, delusional.
And what if that WAS the best you could be? Premier League also-rans?
It is a complicated and layered abstract, you're right. And while some owners can provide sustainability because the budget is small so they need to sell the best players, or scale back on investment into the infrastructure. Some owners can provide community involvement because everything else is ticking along nicely and baubles and big signings are out of reach. Some owners can ensure the fans are entertained by employing managers who play attractive style and provide the resources to supply them with players who can deliver it. Winning things is something only a rare few can realistically provide.
What did Ashley do?
He didn't make us sustainable. Our commercial revenue was on par with Spurs before, and below yours and Leicester's by the end, two clubs who had climbed from League One to the top flight during his time. We owed him over £100m, a debt that was only serviced by a takeover. We had a poor academy so we were not producing saleable assets. Our transfer policy was slipshod, so were still paying players princely sums, who were nowhere near our first team (Hendrick still has time left on his contract with us). Without the Premier League broadcast money, we had sweet Eff All income.
He certainly had no community involvement to speak of. Multiple Fans Forums were cancelled, or unattended by decision makers.
The football for large parts of his reign could hardly be classed as entertaining. Even the 'successful terms of Hughton and Benitez was attritional and pragmatic.
We won 2 Championship Titles in his time, but came nowhere near winning a major trophy. I don't think a Championship trophy counts as a major trophy, do you?
I have not heard a single song celebrating Saudi Arabia. The public projection is just that, a projection. It's as profound as the chants you hear up and down the country.
I don't think it's irrelevant at all. The terraces are theatre, with bravado and braggadocio dominating above genuine, earnestly felt opinions. What people say away from the noise and the passion of a football match is way more likely to be their honestly held belief.
That's not the truth. Not if you can set aside your own subjective position and look at it objectively. Objectively Ashley brought a competitive sporting institution low, tore out it's heart, and through his actions and inactions forced thousands to give up on what once was integral to their week.
I know exactly what a damaged club is, I know yours was near dissolution, I know of the troubles of Bury and Macclesfield, Portsmouth and Leeds. Sunderland too. But I'm not putting Ashley on a par with those owners, I'm not saying he was the worst owner ever. I'm simply saying we had a long list of reasons to want him gone, a long list of reasons to hold him in contempt, and a long list of reasons why he was a bad owner. We think it, ex-managers and players say it, pundits say it, journalists say it, even the man himself said it.
The future of the club was threatened, because without a connection, without fans, what is a club?
highflyer
Well-known member
- Jan 21, 2016
- 2,555
If I was PIF I'd want my money back in that case. As others have said, he/she is arguing their case politely, patiently and persistantly. But also entirely ineffectually. If anything my distaste about the failure of Newcastle fans to oppose the new regime has been deepened.
It's odd, as the Newcastle fans in person are hard to dislike, yet I despise their general (not universal) acceptance of being owned by a bunch of rich murderers.
That your criticism of us is somewhat diluted by the global acceptance of late stage capitalism
Haven't defended the Saudis one bit. I have defended the fans from some pretty petty internet point scoring though. I've seen us be called thick, that we're all lock step behind the Saudis, that Ashley wasn't a bad owner (and thus by implication that we were wrong to want him out), and so on.
Few have criticised the PL, the FA or the UK Government; those with actual power to prevent a takeover. Few have criticised Ashley for choosing to accept this bid, rather than the other equal bids that I've mentioned before. No, its the fanbase which is criticised for failing to do something that, if you were honest, few fanbases in our situation would.
I'd suggest the reason that it's ineffectual is as much to do with my limitations, as it is a desire to repel the interloper.
I admire The Fish's perseverance, but I think you're beginning to test our levels of sympathy when you bring in arguments about "attritional and pragmatic" football as part of the justification!
As I'm having a bit of a lunch break, I thought I'd just check how REALLY AWFUL it was under Ashley's tenure. For the 14 seasons he owned NUFC, your average league position was FOURTEENTH. This compares to your all time average of FIFTEENTH. And looking at just the last 50 years, it was TENTH.
So the Ashley era was actually slightly better than NUFC's historic position....and only four places below the average finish over the past 50 years.
And (as I've started, and found a really good website!) if you want to look at the 80s and 90s, NUFC finished on average NINETEENTH over those two decades.
Newcastle fans had every right to be annoyed at Ashley, but - based on results - the team didn't do too badly during his ownership, and he would no doubt argue that he was just as successful as pretty much any other era in NUFC's long history.
As I'm having a bit of a lunch break, I thought I'd just check how REALLY AWFUL it was under Ashley's tenure. For the 14 seasons he owned NUFC, your average league position was FOURTEENTH. This compares to your all time average of FIFTEENTH. And looking at just the last 50 years, it was TENTH.
So the Ashley era was actually slightly better than NUFC's historic position....and only four places below the average finish over the past 50 years.
And (as I've started, and found a really good website!) if you want to look at the 80s and 90s, NUFC finished on average NINETEENTH over those two decades.
Newcastle fans had every right to be annoyed at Ashley, but - based on results - the team didn't do too badly during his ownership, and he would no doubt argue that he was just as successful as pretty much any other era in NUFC's long history.
I don't really understand the logic behind your post. Is it that Newcastle fans have no justification to hold Ashley in contempt, because during his 14 seasons we averaged a bottom half of the top flight finish? We must disregard everything else, and instead compare our average league position under Ashley to our 131yr historical position? I, a 42yr old man had no right to be displeased with Ashley because in 1937, 54yrs before I was born, we finished 19th in Division 2?
As I've said before, Newcastle were in European competition 11/14 seasons before him and 1/14 during his time. That is important. It measures what he inherited vs what he passed on. He didn't buy a relegation fodder team, he didn't buy a team with no commercial revenue, he didn't buy a team with a dilapidated academy/training facility/stadium.
Imagine 14 yrs ago you bought a nice Victorian terraced house in a good area for £200k, it's got a new kitchen, recent rewiring sorted, all the modcons for the time. Then over the next 14 years you let the garden run wild, don't repaint or repoint, don't rewire or replace appliances and yet, because of the housing market you sell it for £650k 14 years later.
Have you been a good home owner? Well yes, because 100 years ago it was only worth £8k. Right?
The logic is simple - I'm just pointing out that the "justification" for accepting Saudi ownership on the basis of all those terrible years under Ashley doesn't stand up.
Also, on the house analogy....I think your point is that, because my house isn't in decent condition anymore, I simply MUST sell it to a bunch of murderous, homophobic, mysogenistic moneymen. As we';re all trying to point out - that isn't the only option!
Ah, therein lies the rub;
1 we didn't have a say in the sale of our club
2 the other bids put to Ashley were not accepted, the Saudi bid was the only one he was willing to push forward with. Rumours are that it's because as part of the negotiations he pressed for the right to open Sports Direct stores across Saudi Arabia. Something Kenyon, or the Orleggi Group couldn't match.
The reasons we wanted shot of Ashley were legion, it wasn't just down to league position. Hell that wouldn't even be in my top 5 reasons. I've long admired the way Bloom runs you, way before you finished in the top half. I would have swapped Ashley for Bloom in a f***ing heartbeat. Even when you were just getting promoted to the Championship and we were in the UEFA Cup. It was clear even then that he was building something special.
I think people are happy to accept that Ashley needed to go - not so much for the actual level of performance under his regime - but because the relationship between himself and the Newcastle fans was utterly broken. He held the Toon Army in contempt, and was happy to publicly take the piss. The guy is clearly an absolute prick.
Want him gone? 100%
Want him gone SO badly, that you can ignore the background or 'shortcomings' of literally ANY mega-rich alternative owner? Not so much.
Haha! Classic whataboutism and semantics that's just a minor variation on the 'everyone else is doing it so why shouldn't I?' defence.
I don't get it: no one's forcing you to personally financially support a Saudi state business so why not just own that decision and say you don't care enough to act otherwise?
People do things they know they shouldn't or would prefer not to all the time, for all sorts of, predominantly selfish, reasons - I know I do. But what I don't do is kid myself about it & that's how you come across to me. Ashley, the Govt, the FA etc are irrelevant to your personal decision and its consequences / meaning; you want to have your cake and eat it but, in this instance, you can't and it's better to be honest with yourself and others at that base level.
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Are they? From a lot of what I've read on here, we had no right to want him out because other teams had it worse. Or we've had it worse before ourselves.
We're not ignoring the background etc. We're fully aware of them and each individual has to make their choices for themselves.
And had we had the choice of which new owner would buy us I'm sure many thousands would have jumped at the chance to have our say. I certainly wouldn't have picked the Saudis. But we didn't have a choice. And that gets lost in all of this.
It appears to be the consensus that we chose the Saudis. We didn't.
- Thread starter
- #180
Yeah, you were down to your last 50,000.