[News] Middle East conflict

[Seagull58]

Israel don't really do targeted attacks do they, as we have seen in Gaza. They'll claim there was a specific target, but they really couldn't give a flying f*ck at a rolling donut about any collateral damage that results from their rockets, bombs and missiles.

The same with today. Detonating pagers, whilst hitting their Hezbollah targets, takes zero account of where they are. If kids die, then so be it. Netanyahu really couldn't give a toss, all bets are off now.

Now I'm confused. I thought it was Hezbollah firing the rockets indiscriminately into Israel every day. Have I been misinformed?

 

[Seagull58]

I was told by my Ol'gran

"one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist"

Yes, of course, as we've seen in South Africa, Angola, Mozambique, Nicaragua etc., but, imo, this was most definitely not a terrorist attack. It was a targeted operation to disrupt and immobilise Hezbollah's organisational structure. It is not comparable to the rockets Hezbollah fires indiscriminately into Israel every day.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Let's say we don't live a comfortable and safe Britain, let's say we live in the Britain of my parents at war with Germany. I wonder how many people on here would have stood up and protested against the bombing and killing of civilians in Germany , Hamburg & Dresden or maybe the atom bombs .

 

[Seagull58]

While sharing the amazement at the sheer chutzpah of the tactics used, I really wish Israel would consider likely collateral damage a little more. In all of their many conflicts, frankly.

They may have taken out some enemy operatives, but there’s a lot of innocent people who don’t deserve what’s happened out there tonight. It doesn’t feel like anyone’s winning to me.

They blew up nearly 3000 pagers that were distributed to Hezbollah operatives. Who else would be using these pagers? There are reported to be some 2800 casualties. Hezbollah members would, surely, be the vast majority of the casualties? The video I have seen of the pager blowing up in the supermarket showed no injuries other than the person who had it in his pocket. "Some enemy operatives" is most likely well over 2,000 in one attack. Far more effective that bombing a building, and more precisely targeted.

 

[Eric the meek]

Let's say we don't live a comfortable and safe Britain, let's say we live in the Britain of my parents at war with Germany. I wonder how many people on here would have stood up and protested against the bombing and killing of civilians in Germany , Hamburg & Dresden or maybe the atom bombs .

Fair point. If any people on here had done that during the war with Germany, it is unlikely they would have done it twice.

 

[Insel affe]

Yes, of course, as we've seen in South Africa, Angola, Mozambique, Nicaragua etc., but, imo, this was most definitely not a terrorist attack. It was a targeted operation to disrupt and immobilise Hezbollah's organisational structure. It is not comparable to the rockets Hezbollah fires indiscriminately into Israel every day.

Some would argue, they are acting in a preventative measure as Israel has been practically been given a green light to do as it wishes where it wishes by NATO by not being strong enough or scared of losing investment, business and American/Jewish votes in countries like the USA.
Israel has displaced and killed thousands, I think it is a legitimate concern from Lebanon that Israel is striking while the iron is hot, and will turn their attention to them, 200,000 people have been displaced since the start of this thing on the Lebanon border with Israel.

Is 43000 dead an acceptable response to the Hamas atrocity that started this ?

 

[Easy 10]

Now I'm confused. I thought it was Hezbollah firing the rockets indiscriminately into Israel every day. Have I been misinformed?

There's obviously wrongdoing ALL sides. Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel are all guilty of conducting indiscriminate attacks - I thought that pretty much went without saying, but clearly not.

This thread is specifically discussing the Israeli pager attack and the nature of it. But thanks for the sarky response, champ.

 

[Seagull58]

I agree they intentionally targeted Hezbollah. No question about it - that was their intention and I've read commentary saying that they weren't even sure they were going to follow through with the plot, but were worried about detection so decided to go ahead. I wonder if they regret that choice now, or would have been more targeted - I'm sure we'll never know.

But there is no chance they thought ONLY Hamas/Hezbollah fighters and leaders would be injured. When they were devising the plot and tampering with the devices, they would have known there would be a high risk that innocent people would be injured and killed. I don't believe they wouldn't have factored that in, and decided to proceed.

Maybe the comparison with 9/11 and October 7th is unreasonable overall, considering the intent was purely civilian casualties. But for scale of attack and the number of people caught up in it, it's definitely comparable. Humanity at its worst.

The scale of the attack is not at all comparable in terms of people killed 9/11 had 3,000 civilian deaths, October 7th had over 1,000 civilian deaths, this attack has 12 reported deaths (unknown how many are non-combatants).

 

[aolstudios]

oh they did and let it ride, as a pretence to flatten, displace and indiscriminately kill 43000 in revenge.

The US and several other agencies warned them, they knew.

That is utter, utter Icke level bullshit

 

[Seagull58]

I agree with you up to the analogy with 9/11 and October 7. Both of these were deliberate attacks on civilians.

The pager attack was a specific attack on a terrorist organization, albeit with no regard whatsoever for collateral damage to innocent bystanders.

As with the rest of the Israel vs the Muslim world conflict there is nothing good about any of it, but that still doesn't mean it is all the same, every event identical. Some may argue that indifference to civilian causalities is the same as the deliberate targeting of civilians. I'm not sure that's particularly helpful. Anyway, even what we think about it matters not a jot.

Perhaps the worst aspect of this, collateral damage aside, is that it will achieve nothing useful. The terrorists are hardly going to think "boy, those Israelis are damned smart - we had better leave them alone and seek a peace deal". No, they will be plotting revenge as I type. And Bibi and chums will simply be having a laugh about the deaths, not thinking "one more attack and they will surrender!". In many respects this latest event typifies the whole mess.

Edit I see that @hans kraay fan club has made my first point already.

You can't be sure that it will achieve nothing useful. There are examples in history of terrorist organisations renouncing violence and embracing peaceful, political means, and examples of terrorist organisations pretty much ceasing to exist. The IRA as the former and the Tamil Tigers as the latter. Also, Frelimo, Swapo, Sandanista etc. etc.

 

[beorhthelm]

They blew up nearly 3000 pagers that were distributed to Hezbollah operatives. Who else would be using these pagers? There are reported to be some 2800 casualties. Hezbollah members would, surely, be the vast majority of the casualties? The video I have seen of the pager blowing up in the supermarket showed no injuries other than the person who had it in his pocket. "Some enemy operatives" is most likely well over 2,000 in one attack. Far more effective that bombing a building, and more precisely targeted.

if Hezbollah attacks a barracks or police station in Israel, is that ok then and not terrorism, because its targetted?

maybe i'm the odd one, in my eyes, deliberatly maiming targets just isn't how you go about immobilising an adversary.

 

[Insel affe]

That is utter, utter Icke level bullshit

Yeah alright...

USA & Egypt warned them, it is not such a great leap....

You know what, sometimes governments play the people.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/13/politics/us-intelligence-warnings-potential-gaza-clash-days-before-attack/index.html

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says

But Israel's PM describes any claim it received a specific warning as "totally fake news".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Easy 10]

It's not at all indiscriminate. It precisely targeted the Hamas operatives that use pagers distributed by their leadership. Nobody else uses those pagers.

Good luck if you just happened to be standing close to one the Hezbollah (not Hamas) operatives when his pager was detonated then.

 

[Seagull58]

Some would argue, they are acting in a preventative measure as Israel has been practically been given a green light to do as it wishes where it wishes by NATO by not being strong enough or scared of losing investment, business and American/Jewish votes in countries like the USA.
Israel has displaced and killed thousands, I think it is a legitimate concern from Lebanon that Israel is striking while the iron is hot, and will turn their attention to them, 200,000 people have been displaced since the start of this thing on the Lebanon border with Israel.

Is 43000 dead an acceptable response to the Hamas atrocity that started this ?

I cannot understand how firing hundreds of rockets into Israel daily, indiscriminately hitting civilian infrastructure, can be a preventative measure. Have I misunderstood your point?

 

[Seagull58]

There's obviously wrongdoing ALL sides. Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel are all guilty of conducting indiscriminate attacks - I thought that pretty much went without saying, but clearly not.

This thread is specifically discussing the Israeli pager attack and the nature of it. But thanks for the sarky response, champ.

The pager attack is not an indiscriminate attack though. It is anything but.

 

[Seagull58]

if Hezbollah attacks a barracks or police station in Israel, is that ok then and not terrorism, because its targetted?

maybe i'm the odd one, in my eyes, deliberatly maiming targets just isn't how you go about immobilising an adversary.

How would you go about it?

 

[chip]

Let's say we don't live a comfortable and safe Britain, let's say we live in the Britain of my parents at war with Germany. I wonder how many people on here would have stood up and protested against the bombing and killing of civilians in Germany , Hamburg & Dresden or maybe the atom bombs .

The Quakers did, and got the Nobel Peace Prize for it. https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/peace/1947/ceremony-speech/

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The Quakers did, and got the Nobel Peace Prize for it. https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/peace/1947/ceremony-speech/

Two years after the war finished. Many of them were imprisoned during it.

 

[Wardy's twin]

You can't be sure that it will achieve nothing useful. There are examples in history of terrorist organisations renouncing violence and embracing peaceful, political means, and examples of terrorist organisations pretty much ceasing to exist. The IRA as the former and the Tamil Tigers as the latter. Also, Frelimo, Swapo, Sandanista etc. etc.

It was never the objective of the IRA to wipe out the protestants or the English and there in lies the major difference and that is pretty much true of the groups you mention above. In the case of the IRA it was clear that the conflict was going nowhere, support was waning (especially as economic conditions improved) and rational people (yes i did say that) decided that peace might be a better option .

Until its clear that demands for the destruction of Israel are stopped then the Netanyahu's position seems justified to the current majority of Israelis and with that comes the continued aggressiveness.

 

[chip]

Two years after the war finished. Many of them were imprisoned during it.

Yes, I alo have a recollection that the Chief Nurse was a Quaker and camapigned for civilian relief in Germany.