[News] Middle East conflict

[birthofanorange]

The absolute grace of hostage Yocheved Lifschitz, 85, a peace activist, turning back at the moment of her release and shaking hands with one of her heavily-armed captors is a stunningly beautiful thing

If there's any hope of peace between them, that image should be the cornerstone of it. Truly remarkable.

 

[aolstudios]

If there's any hope of peace between them, that image should be the cornerstone of it. Truly remarkable.

They're still holding her husband & over 200 more. She's hardly going to spit on them

 

[birthofanorange]

They're still holding her husband & over 200 more. She's hardly going to spit on them

Maybe not, but there was no need to do that, either. We cannot know what is going on in her mind, but I'd rather see it as a constructive gesture, however, others are free to interpret it differently, of course.

 

[Krafty]

I'm sure the IDF will say that Palestinians are collateral damage because Hamas have deliberately located their command centres, rocket launchers and tunnel network in the midst of residential areas so they have human shields. That's why Israel told the civilians to evacuate to the South. It may not be justified or an effective means to bring peace but is is not the bloodthirsty, targeted torture, rape and murder of innocents that Hamas indulged in.

And they also bombed the innocent Palestinians evacuating from North Gaza to the South along the so-called "safe routes".

Gaza civilians afraid to leave home after bombing of ‘safe routes’

Analysis of aerial photos and social media posts confirms attack on road identified as safe by Israeli army

www.theguardian.com

What is your point here?

 

[Hugo Rune]

Starting to sound like the US is getting cold feet about the Israeli planned invasion. It strikes me that when an invasion happens (I say “when” because sadly I think it is inevitable) then the hostages will be the first casualties, that was part of the Hamas plan expecting this sort of outcome, and I can imagine that would be a bad outcome from the perspective of any western Government with their nationals among those hostages, including ours. The issue I think is Netanyahu has backed himself into a corner on it, and he remains domestically a fundamentally weak leader.

I agree that the hostages will be the first casualties when this happens but Hamas have seriously underestimated the Israeli government and IDF.

I think the Israeli government will pay the price of the hostage’s lives, hundreds or thousands of Israeli armed forces lives and 50k+ Palestinian innocent civilian lives to get the chance to eliminate Hamas for a decade or so. Revenge and vengeance is all they care about now.

An extinct Hamas is surely a good thing but the price seems extraordinarily too high. A virtual guarantee that this struggle will remain for as long as there is religion in the region.

 

[amexer]

If Israel closed there Settlements in the West Bank would this make things better for ending this

 

[A1X]

I think the Israeli government will pay the price of the hostage’s lives, hundreds or thousands of Israeli armed forces lives and 50k+ Palestinian innocent civilian lives to get the chance to eliminate Hamas for a decade or so. Revenge and vengeance is all they care about now.

SadlynI think you’re right, however whether western Governments are prepared to pay the price of their own civilians lives is another matter, and especially the US

 

[Hugo Rune]

SadlynI think you’re right, however whether western Governments are prepared to pay the price of their own civilians lives is another matter, and especially the US

Let’s hope they have enough influence. Those poor, poor hostages held captive in those tunnels. I can’t begin to imagine the horror they are going through. As soon as the IDF start on those tunnels, their fate is in the balance.

 

[fly high]

If Israel closed there Settlements in the West Bank would this make things better for ending this

Not going to happen though. Should never have been allowed in the first place.

 

[1066familyman]

50 years ago. Not exactly recent.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

theintercept.com

It's been posted several times in this thread already. As recent as 2019 Netanyahu had a policy of supporting Hamas, expressly with the desire to ensure a two state solution doesn't become a possibility.

 

[nicko31]

If Israel closed there Settlements in the West Bank would this make things better for ending this

That would be like trying to remove the eggs from a cake

 

[knocky1]

That would be like trying to remove the eggs from a cake

Many people act as if vegan cake eaters are worse than the IDF.

 

[knocky1]

I've lived through the horrific biblical eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth approach.
Can't believe it's currently a ratio of one eye to five. 6 eyes of mainly innocent civilians.

 

[amexer]

Not going to happen though. Should never have been allowed in the first place.

So who allowed it and why can it never happen If it did would it end war

 

[nicko31]

I've lived through the horrific biblical eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth approach.
Can't believe it's currently a ratio of one eye to five. 6 eyes of mainly innocent civilians.

Death ratio 2008-2020, 22 to 1

Israel is not used to losing personnel on this scale

 

[1066familyman]

So who allowed it and why can it never happen If it did would it end war

1. US vetoes pretty much.

2. No.

 

[Bakero]

Guns for the Afghan rebels.

The west armed the mad Islamist Taliban who overthrew Najibullah.

Hindsight is not an effective answer to the law of unintended consequences. But.....facts are facts.

My father was brutally killed by the Taliban. The US ignored his pleas for help | Muska Najibullah

I am the daughter of a former Afghan president. I am sharing my story for the first time because I see history repeating itself

www.theguardian.com

Guns for the Mujahedeen, death squads in Latin America, dictators worldwide. Uncle Sam will get into bed with anyone to maintain hegemony and keep the oil flowing.

 

[Zeberdi]

In another matter, that may be of interest - the background of the Israeli Ambassador should make people blink:

So - in the past week:

1. The Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Tzipi Hotovely, has denied that Gaza has an humanitarian problem (perhaps the first step to seeing an ‘humanitarian’ crises in Gaza is seeing the people of Gaza as ‘human’, Ms Hotovely?).
2. She called Hamas, the ‘Nazis‘ - (and yet who’s been keeping whom in one large, services-deprived, impoverished ghetto for the last 18 yrs, Ambassador,? But whatever ….)
3. She has also said that the deaths of 1000s upon 1000s of Palestinian civilians from Israel’s bombardment is the fault of Hamas for committing the atrocities in the first place (the inverse logic of a fundamentalist Religious Zionist of course)
4. She has blamed the lack of water and power in Gaza also on Hamas because ‘they are responsible’ for the people of Gaza (uh, no they’re not Shylock, under the Hague Convention, as the Occupying force, Israel is - “ The occupying power has the duty to ensure that the adequate provision of food and medical supplies is provided, as well as clothing, bedding, means of shelter, other supplies essential to the survival of the civilian population of the occupied territory, and objects necessary for religious worship (GCIV Arts. 55, 58; API Art. 69) - (I’m reading that as ‘not setting up an illegal blockade, or bombing all their mosques or cutting off water and food supplies to 2m people in the hope you can starve them‘ into … I dunno…into what, exactly?).
5. She accused Hamas of committing a war crime by keeping them in Gaza - in a war zone - (where were they going to go, you big doofus, into the Med?- because they surely weren’t getting into Egypt at that point…)

There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza: Israeli ambassador to Britain

'Would you expect your government to think about those Nazis committing those crimes?' says Israeli envoy to UK when asked about humanitarian crisis in Gaza - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Israel ambassador to UK tells LBC 'Hamas is to blame' for lack of water and power in Gaza

The Israeli Ambassador has accused Hamas of committing a "double war crime" by keeping civilians in a war zone.

www.lbc.co.uk

So, in the interest of transparency, I did some digging to see who it is that the UK Israelis have purportedly fighting their corner and who it is that is representing the interests of Israel to the British Government…(and offering advice on all matters Israel on our mainstream media …)

• Tzipi Hotovely practises orthodox Judaism and is a self-described "religious right-winger" (she is actually a far-right fundamentalist Religious Zionist)
• 2008, 11 November - Hotovely joined Netanyahu’s far right Likud party
• 2013 - she joined the government and as Deputy Foreign Minister to Netanyahu, very publicly rejected the concept of Palestinian statehood instead supported an aggressive expansionist policy for Israel, that would eventually annex the entire OPT to Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-hits-back-at-us-settlement-expansion-is-not-the-problem/
• 2015 - She doubled down on this in a speech to Israeli diplomats on 22 May 2015, rebuffed criticism from the international community regarding settlement policies - She said: "We need to return to the basic truth of our rights to this country.…This land is ours. All of it is ours. We did not come here to apologise for that …”. "It's my dream to see the Israeli flag flying on the Temple Mount." She added at the time and still maintains : "I think it's the centre of Israeli sovereignty, the capital of Israel, the holiest place for the Jewish people" (It is also the holiest place for Christians and one of 3 top holy sites for Muslims too or does that fail to register in your Ultra-Zionist vision, Madam Foreign Minister ? )
• 2020 - Hotovesly is selected as the Ambassador to the UK (at a time when Netanyahu is announcing plans to annex 30% of the OPT of the West Bank to Israel under the Trump Plan)
• 800 British Jews protest at her appointment- Rabbis and politicians alike called on the British Government to refuse her appointment to the post because of her far-right views and segregationist stance. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ly-is-chosen-as-next-israeli-ambassador-to-uk
• 2021 - Jewish students in uproar https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...face-of-israel-does-not-defend-free-speech-2/
  
  

  'Racism isn’t kosher': British Jews protest ongoing embrace of Israeli ambassador

  Left-wing activists staged a walkout at an event marking Tzipi Hotovely's first year as Israel's U.K. ambassador, in protest at her hardline views and ties to the far right.

  www.972mag.com
• 2022 - ‘Hotovely’s appearance at the London School of Economics (LSE) sparked major controversy. Students protesting her appearance were slammed as anti-Sematic by the mainstream media, senior members of parliament and pro-Israeli groups. An investigation by LSE confirmed that the student had done nothing wrong confirming what many believed at the time that the reaction was feigned to stoke outrage against pro-Palestinian activists.’

So there you have it - The British Ambassador to Israel has, as Netanyahu’s Deputy Foreign Minister, and as Minister of Settlements Affairs, actively pursued policies of a ‘Greater Israel’ through settlement expansion and annexation for the past 10 years, has repeatedly dehumanised and ‘cancel-cultured‘ Palestinians, been frequently accused of racism, not a welcome speaker at our university debating societies, intensely disliked/unpopular with moderate British Jews and is directly representative of the most far-right, fundamentalist government in Israeli history - this Ambassador is not someone you would want anywhere near a ‘peace process’. And yet, the Palestinian Ambassador has been ostracised by our own Foreign Minister, James Cleverly, for accusing Israel of war crimes against civilians.

 

[Seagull58]

That's exactly what the IDF would say. However, as you suggest, it's not justified or effective but the other side did worse so hey ho, off you go?

I'm sorry but I don't understand your point.

From a Israeli standpoint, I understand the desire for revenge. It's a normal human reaction. Politicians need to act rationally though and not follow their base desires. The outside world, free from the "tribalism of pain", certainly need to think critically and look for solutions not justify vengeance.

My point is that Hamas deliberately tortured, raped and murdered innocent civilians, whereas the IDF is specifically targeting Hamas combatants with the aim of destroying Hamas' ability to wage war from Gaza. They are not the same

 

[Insel affe]

My point is that Hamas deliberately tortured, raped and murdered innocent civilians,

yes

whereas the IDF is specifically targeting Hamas combatants with the aim of destroying Hamas' ability to wage war from Gaza. They are not the same

Oh please, two wrongs don’t make a right.
The IDF are targeting…..
An area…