- Apr 5, 2014
- 25,992
Why do we care ? Would be my response. Someone could wave the flag of Uranus for all it bothers me. Actually, I've not seen that one before.
[News] Middle East conflict
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
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A small piece of evidence below of the concerted efforts to control the media narrative. I’m sure both sides are guilty of spinning the news, but one seems to be far more effective than the other. Also, in my view, they do this ALL the time, not just in times of conflict.
Insel affe
HellBilly
Just for you my friend.
- Apr 5, 2014
- 25,992
Splendid. Although I'm not well disposed towards Uranus lovers. They talk out their backsides.
jakarta
Well-known member
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,971
Which in itself is part of a seemingly intractable cycle of violent protest triggered by both sides.
The response from the IDF has for years been seen as disproportionate and without due process by human rights organisations (see below) ... ‘Stone-throwing’ by Palestinian kids as a way of protest has been going on in the Occupied Territories for as long as I can remember - and for as long as I can remember, the same cycle of oppression, stone throwing, followed excessive force and collective punishments to deal with it, followed by an uprising of more angry protest because a child(ren) have died at the hands of the IDF etc etc …
’Both the Israeli Defense Forces and militant Palestinian groups have been accused of violating the rights of children and causing injury and death. According to B'tselem's calculations (2021), some 2,171 Palestinian children have been killed in the last two decades by Israeli military actions,[2][3] and 139 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinian militants.[3]
(wiki)
Now add https://www.dci-palestine.org/genoc...palestinian_children_killed_by_israeli_forces
Stone-throwing and Molotov attacks are seen by Palestinian kids as the only means to show resistant to the ‘monster’ …but it arises more out of a visceral fear that all kids have of monsters rather than being motivated by political ideals according to some commentators
West Bank: Spike in Israeli Killings of Palestinian Children
The Israeli military and border police forces are killing Palestinian children with virtually no recourse for accountability.
Israeli soldiers routinely detain Palestinian children for throwing rocks
“Arresting children here is becoming normal,” one human rights activist said.
www.vox.com
Why Palestinian children throw stones
Children in my Gaza refugee camp were rarely afraid of monsters. Instead, they were afraid of Israeli soldiers. That was all that we talked about before going to bed. Unlike imaginary monsters in the closet or under the bed, Israeli soldiers were real and they could show up any minute — at the...
www.arabnews.com
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aolstudios
Well-known member
aolstudios
Well-known member
Just a little more...
Somewhat perplexed by this line in Andrew Griffith MP's reply to me.
"To be clear, the recent and continuing events in Israel and against Israel citizens are extremely grave and represent the largest such attack since the Nazi holocaust."
Does he mean the largest attack on Jewish people since the holocaust?
Why is he linking the holocaust to attacks on the Israeli State.
Does he know that Israeli citizens include people of Jewish faith, Muslim faith and Christian faith?
I merely asked him whether he felt the response to the attacks was proportionate?
At present I still fear that the Israeli government is making a grave error and falling into a trap. This is precisely what Iran wants to see happen. In addition, it is just plain wrong. They are now prosecuting a war against Palestinian citizens and not against Hamas. Aid is still not reaching Palestinians and far more people are dying because of our blind support for the Israeli government.
For balance, I do believe we need an Israeli state. I don't support the naivety of protestors in London shouting "from the river to the sea Palestine should be free." I do believe we need a two state solution but so many protestors are blind to the machinations of the likes of Iran and Qatar. But, we are creating ISIS 2.0 right here in the Middle East now. The Israeli government has even admitted that it has no plan of what to do after it has defeated Hamas. Is it going to rebuild Gaza?
I think our political leader's rush to support a side in this is madness.
The IDF are totally wrong in their approach to this and to the way in which the West Bank and Gaza is administered. Their zero-tolerance brutality is unacceptable. But we are also blind to Iran will do and what it will continue to keep doing to destabilise the region. In turn, a battle with Iran suits the agenda for Russia and China. And so the whirligig of geo-politics moves on.
Either way, there are Israeli's who have died and Palestinians who are dying and a whole lot more on both sides who may be about to die and all our leaders are saying is "Crack-on!"
"To be clear, the recent and continuing events in Israel and against Israel citizens are extremely grave and represent the largest such attack since the Nazi holocaust."
Does he mean the largest attack on Jewish people since the holocaust?
Why is he linking the holocaust to attacks on the Israeli State.
Does he know that Israeli citizens include people of Jewish faith, Muslim faith and Christian faith?
I merely asked him whether he felt the response to the attacks was proportionate?
At present I still fear that the Israeli government is making a grave error and falling into a trap. This is precisely what Iran wants to see happen. In addition, it is just plain wrong. They are now prosecuting a war against Palestinian citizens and not against Hamas. Aid is still not reaching Palestinians and far more people are dying because of our blind support for the Israeli government.
For balance, I do believe we need an Israeli state. I don't support the naivety of protestors in London shouting "from the river to the sea Palestine should be free." I do believe we need a two state solution but so many protestors are blind to the machinations of the likes of Iran and Qatar. But, we are creating ISIS 2.0 right here in the Middle East now. The Israeli government has even admitted that it has no plan of what to do after it has defeated Hamas. Is it going to rebuild Gaza?
I think our political leader's rush to support a side in this is madness.
The IDF are totally wrong in their approach to this and to the way in which the West Bank and Gaza is administered. Their zero-tolerance brutality is unacceptable. But we are also blind to Iran will do and what it will continue to keep doing to destabilise the region. In turn, a battle with Iran suits the agenda for Russia and China. And so the whirligig of geo-politics moves on.
Either way, there are Israeli's who have died and Palestinians who are dying and a whole lot more on both sides who may be about to die and all our leaders are saying is "Crack-on!"
Insel affe
HellBilly
kojak
Well-known member
- Jan 17, 2022
- 834
Sadly I think conflict with Iran is inevitable
Once it has the bomb,I think we all know where it will be going
Maybe a conventional war now as opposed to a nuclear one later
If it's the latter, today's casualties will pale into insignificance
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,971
Yes
(‘Israel’ or the State of Israel or the ‘Jewish State’ )
- the attacks were carried out by Islamic Jihadist on Israeli soil whose ideology is largely anti-semitic and annihilistic - a view shared by Nazi racial ideology. Also, anti-semitism is not confined to Jews in Israel but Jews worldwide - 10/7 is regarded by Israel and the West that it was indeed the single biggest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust - Israel has been commonly recognised as a ‘Jewish State’ since the Balfour Declaration when envisaging Partition and over 70% of her population is Jewish - Netanyahu’s predecessor made it a condition of a two state resolution that jihadist Palestinians recognised ‘Israel’ as being the ‘Nation State of the Jewish People’ - which they have refused to in recent peace effort with Israeli‘s far right governance as its a stumbling block for return. It’s not a Religious Zionist policy position that I necessarily agree with because does impede peace efforts (perhaps it is meant to). Whether the Hamas attack should be defined as anti-semitic or just against an occupying force is a legitimate point to make but make no mistake, ‘Israel’ is characterised as a ‘Jewish State’ both in international relationships with the West and land to be occupied by Jews as the foundation of it’s existence and the original Partition rationale to ‘create a land for the Jewish people’ - which makes the concept very difficult to remove from any peace dialogue with those who have anti-semitism as their founding core principles .
It’s worth pointing out too, with regard to the point that I believe you are making, that the original Zionist movement in the 1800’s was actually secular and didn’t regard theocratic government as being necessary or even desirable for a State of Israel but the far right Religious Zionists in coalition with Netanyahu are moving further towards a Israel being a Theocratic state and using that as a justification for undermining the democratic rights of its citizens (Jewish and Arab alike) as well as many would argue, to block any proposal for a completely Independent State for Palestine
Israel’s theocratic government imperils all things secular
The current government in Israel, quite certainly the most theocratic in the country’s history, has launched a full-out onslaught on all things secular. More than half of the seats in
ffrf.org
There is a debate around this - The ’river to the sea’ cry has been around since before the State of Israel declared unilaterally to be an Independent State 1948 -so the song itself doesn’t refer to the destruction of Israel. But since Isreal now exists, for Hamas/Palestinian Jihadists/and other terrorist resistance before them, it specifically refers to an objective that they believe can not be achieved without bisecting/dissembling the State of Israel (refer to map above) - hence the antipathy to it’s use by protesters…
However, for non-violent, Palestinian protestors worldwide, it has been appropriated as slogan more often used to encapsulate the inherent spirit of the Palestinian people who are born ’in captivity’ wherever they live, in Gaza, West Bank, Israel or refugee camps around the Middle East, rather than referring to a specific way in which that may be achieved - (eg Independent States can exist within States and any two State solution does not have to include Gaza but could extend area that includes the West Bank): But yes, it’s a very valid point;
Ps with regard to your point about being ‘blind’ to Iranian influence- I think it’s more a case of conflicting self-interests of the West and within the Arab world than myopathy - self-interests that have been better served for years by destabilising existing divisions and perpetuating violence in the region. However, the blindness of ‘man’ to ‘his’ own folly? That I could wholeheartedly agree with.
I could not 
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Thanks.Yes
(‘Israel’ or the State of Israel or the ‘Jewish State’ )
- the attacks were carried out by Islamic Jihadist on Israeli soil whose ideology is largely anti-semitic and annihilistic - a view shared by Nazi racial ideology. Also, anti-semitism is not confined to Jews in Israel but Jews worldwide - 10/7 is regarded by Israel and the West that it was indeed the single biggest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust - Israel has been commonly recognised as a ‘Jewish State’ since the Balfour Declaration when envisaging Partition and over 70% of her population is Jewish - Netanyahu’s predecessor made it a condition of a two state resolution that jihadist Palestinians recognised ‘Israel’ as being the ‘Nation State of the Jewish People’ - which they have refused to in recent peace effort with Israeli‘s far right governance as its a stumbling block for return. It’s not a Religious Zionist policy position that I necessarily agree with because does impede peace efforts (perhaps it is meant to). Whether the Hamas attack should be defined as anti-semitic or just against an occupying force is a legitimate point to make but make no mistake, ‘Israel’ is characterised as a ‘Jewish State’ both in international relationships with the West and land to be occupied by Jews as the foundation of it’s existence and the original Partition rationale to ‘create a land for the Jewish people’ - which makes the concept very difficult to remove from any peace dialogue with those who have anti-semitism as their founding core principles .
It’s worth pointing out too, with regard to the point that I believe you are making, that the original Zionist movement in the 1800’s was actually secular and didn’t regard theocratic government as being necessary or even desirable for a State of Israel but the far right Religious Zionists in coalition with Netanyahu are moving further towards a Israel being a Theocratic state and using that as a justification for undermining the democratic rights of its citizens (Jewish and Arab alike) as well as many would argue, to block any proposal for a completely Independent State for Palestine
Israel’s theocratic government imperils all things secular
The current government in Israel, quite certainly the most theocratic in the country’s history, has launched a full-out onslaught on all things secular. More than half of the seats in
There is a debate around this - The ’river to the sea’ cry has been around since before the State of Israel declared unilaterally to be an Independent State 1948 -so the song itself doesn’t refer to the destruction of Israel. But since Isreal now exists, for Hamas/Palestinian Jihadists/and other terrorist resistance before them, it specifically refers to an objective that they believe can not be achieved without bisecting/dissembling the State of Israel (refer to map above) - hence the antipathy to it’s use by protesters…
However, for non-violent, Palestinian protestors worldwide, it has been appropriated as slogan more often used to encapsulate the inherent spirit of the Palestinian people who are born ’in captivity’ wherever they live, in Gaza, West Bank, Israel or refugee camps around the Middle East, rather than referring to a specific way in which that may be achieved - (eg Independent States can exist within States and any two State solution does not have to include Gaza but could extend area that includes the West Bank): But yes, it’s a very valid point;
So do you see the attacks as an anti-semitic act or an attack on an occupying force, or both? And regardless of either, do you think that linking this act of criminality to the actions of the Nazis is the correct characterisation of the situation we now face? Does it risk damaging understanding and progressive thinking if we try to tie it all to the ideology of Hitler? (That's notwithstanding Europe's need to stand up and accept that the mass migration of jewish people caused by European antisemitism has caused the influx of people into Palestine - but then again, we're not very good at accepting that our actions in one part of the world can lead to mass-migration of peoples from their homelands.)
Genuinely interested in your thoughts and not going to judge them but use them to further my thinking.
And to other posters, if they wish to leave debate alone then that's up to them.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,971
I think that’s a hell of a lot to unpack!
Perhaps, to avoid getting into another ‘Zeberdi thread’ dominated by endless posts with ridiculously long answers by myself, I think it would better better to leave your questions (some quite loaded!) as largely rhetorical.
(I wholeheartedly support you asking them though
)In the meantime - here’s some reading
PIJ.ORG: The Anti-Semitism of Hamas By Meir Litvak
An independent publication, with an often critical voice, the Palestine-Israel Journal provides background material and in-depth analysis of various aspects of the conflict from the perspective of both sides, thus helping to shed light on the complex issues dividing Israelis and Palestinians and...
pij.org
A bit more cerebral x but your question addressed in the context of the Holocaust
Apologies if fixtures
Worrying development, Yemeni rebels are funded by Iran and could be hoping for a proxy war to get going. Also with the US intercepting it (which was the correct action, BTW) this now plays into the hands of the propagandists who will look to link Israel and the US as being the same thing.
US warship intercepts missiles fired from Yemen 'potentially towards Israel'
The USS Carney in the Red Sea downed missiles and drones fired "potentially towards targets in Israel".
www.bbc.co.uk
Worrying development, Yemeni rebels are funded by Iran and could be hoping for a proxy war to get going. Also with the US intercepting it (which was the correct action, BTW) this now plays into the hands of the propagandists who will look to link Israel and the US as being the same thing.
From CNN...
Two American hostages, a mother and her daughter, are being released by Hamas, according to a person familiar with the negotiations and a diplomatic source.
The two have been handed over to the Red Cross and are “on their way out,” the source familiar with negotiations said. They are being released on “humanitarian grounds” because the mother is in poor health, the same source said.
It is unclear whether they will leave Gaza into Egypt or Israel.
It is the result of the negotiations between Qatar and Hamas that started after Hamas abducted around 200 people from Israel on October 7.
"In response to Qatari efforts, Al-Qassam Brigades released two American citizens (a mother and her daughter) for humanitarian reasons, and to prove to the American people and the world that the claims made by Biden and his fascist administration are false and baseless," Hamas spokesperson Abu Obaida said in a statement.
The White House has not commented. The Israeli prime minister’s office has not commented. CNN has reached out to the Red Cross.
Two American hostages, a mother and her daughter, are being released by Hamas, according to a person familiar with the negotiations and a diplomatic source.
The two have been handed over to the Red Cross and are “on their way out,” the source familiar with negotiations said. They are being released on “humanitarian grounds” because the mother is in poor health, the same source said.
It is unclear whether they will leave Gaza into Egypt or Israel.
It is the result of the negotiations between Qatar and Hamas that started after Hamas abducted around 200 people from Israel on October 7.
"In response to Qatari efforts, Al-Qassam Brigades released two American citizens (a mother and her daughter) for humanitarian reasons, and to prove to the American people and the world that the claims made by Biden and his fascist administration are false and baseless," Hamas spokesperson Abu Obaida said in a statement.
The White House has not commented. The Israeli prime minister’s office has not commented. CNN has reached out to the Red Cross.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,792
I can't help but think that both sides are now driven primarily by 'the propaganda war'. With 24hr worldwide communications, call me an old cynic, but I don't believe the protection of either sides innocent victims are anywhere close to the top of their agendas. If either side was really wanting to 'protect' their own innocent people would we really be where we are now ?
These poor f***ers are being put in the front line by two disgusting regimes to support the right 'message'
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- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,971
Yep - not only are civilians the unacceptable ‘collateral damage’ of this war but for all sides, they have become its currency too …bartered by protagonists in attempts to alter the trajectory of the fightingThese poor f***ers are being put in the front line by two disgusting regimes to support the right 'message'
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The first casualty of war is the truth etc etc. But in this conflict I think one side in particular has more readily available technology to manipulate the media, which in my view they also do constantly all across the world even in times of relative peace. See below.
aolstudios
Well-known member
I'd no more listen to Jones on Jews than I would Farage on small boats, frankly