[News] Middle East conflict

[Questions]

Imagine if the UK covered the Irish Republic with British settlements and they were all protected by heavy security and Irish communities were split apart and their connection to the land weakened, meanwhile British communities put down roots in territory meant for the Irish. They would excluded from certain British-only roads and forced to go through a number of security checkpoints just to move around their territory.

Then we started nicking all their water bore holes and they would be forced to pay high prices for water from trucks.

Just a thought...

I think we’ve already done something like that over there a few years back

 

[wellquickwoody]

I'm well aware that the 'conflict' in Ireland goes back much further than 400 years. I only referenced the Ulster plantations set up by James I in that period because it mirrored the hypothetical event that @nicko31 put up. For example, one of the conditions put on the English and Scottish 'undertakers' by James I during that land grab was that they must, within three years, build a house made of stone to set minimum specifications, with a fortified wall surrounding it and with armaments contained within. In other words, they knew it was an act of hostility they were engaged in. Sound familiar?
I'm also aware that the Israel/Palestine question goes back even further than the Irish question. It is also much much more complex.

It's a very good question as to, 'How long should it be before ancient excuses are consigned to the dustbin?'. I honestly don't know the answer to that. You've chosen to live in Australia I believe? Maybe you have a specific view on historic cut off points and the way forward?

Certainly history needs to be taught so that it can at least be learnt from. However, if the will isn't there to change the course of history through compromise for the betterment of all involved, then yes, it'll forever be used as 'ancient excuses' to continue conflicts, sadly

Not sure of the relevance of me moving to Australia?

It just seems that all sides refer to what the other did last as a justification for what they are about to do, or have already done. It’s just bloody ridiculous. What the opponents, and their supporters (and independent observers like us) should be doing is looking forward to find a solution. What is not needed is insults, aggression and revenge on innocent civilians.

If only the reality could be solved as easily as it was to type this post, sigh.

 

[A1X]

Israeli ambassador on Sky News this morning claiming there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, presumably the UN are lying then?

 

[nicko31]

Israeli ambassador on Sky News this morning claiming there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, presumably the UN are lying then?

She has also claimed Israel always keeps to International law.

Meanwhile it seems half the population of North Gaza are opting to stick around and take their chances, really not surprising at all.

Add to that seems Israel says there is no ceasefire in the South, hopes dashed of the Egypt border opening.

 

[sparkie]

What happens if Iran get involved?

Only bad things.

 

[1066familyman]

Not sure of the relevance of me moving to Australia?

It just seems that all sides refer to what the other did last as a justification for what they are about to do, or have already done. It’s just bloody ridiculous. What the opponents, and their supporters (and independent observers like us) should be doing is looking forward to find a solution. What is not needed is insults, aggression and revenge on innocent civilians.

If only the reality could be solved as easily as it was to type this post, sigh.

Agreed that everyone should be looking forward to find a solution. Unfortunately it's clear that many of those currently in positions of power are not willing to do so.

Apologies. Perhaps I shouldn't have brought up the Australian question here as there's another thread for that currently. It just seemed relevant to me with the point you were making.

 

[Zeberdi]

It just seems that all sides refer to what the other did last as a justification for what they are about to do, or have already done. It’s just bloody ridiculous. What the opponents, and their supporters (and independent observers like us) should be doing is looking forward to find a solution.

It is hard to find a solution to a question when most of those who have been or are directly involved in the conflict (or observers like us) can’t identify the real protagonists nor agree what a solution should look like or even agree on the premise of the question. The last 50yrs or so of failing peace initiatives can attest to that - It becomes an even more of an intractable problem when a bloody and chaotic War is being conducted where’s there is clearly not any sense of shared understanding amongst the main protagonists (and many observers) of who is ‘innocent’ and who is not.

(I think the the Irish problem btw is a good example of an ‘Occupation conflict’ regardless of one’s religion or political view)

 

[Bakero]

(My comments aren’t directed at you BL and I’m certainly not accusing you of anything but for me I feel it needs to be said because of some other reactions to the video that were expressed earlier ….)

Clearly @carlzeiss has views about the Palestinian question (as he has demonstrated from previous posts on this thread) that fall much further to the left of most people (but certainly not all) here that have posted but because we don’t like it, I don’t believe there’s no room for censorship where it’s not needed or the need to intimidate people into not speaking out if they disagree with the majority opinion on a thread - if people read back to the beginning few days of the thread, several posters posted news reports of death toll numbers of the original attacks in direct response to my posts that tried to explain some of the conditions - particularly for Palestinians living under Occupation conflict how it came to this point in the conflict that such an attack could have been carried out - Since then people here have gained more understanding and the debate has shifted into a much more circumspect view of events but several have posted videos or images from news stories since to make their biased points ( it can feel baiting and annoying but is deemed legitimate news by the Mods and I’m inclined to agree) - @carlzeiss posts imo have not been any more one sided than some others here and while largely uninformed about history and the background issues (like some pro-Palestinian posts have been too I might add!) they haven’t been overtly aggressive, trolling or attacking other posters cf to some that have been banned as a consequence. This video (and several others) was posted by the Telegraph on youtube, is relating to an overwhelmingly peaceful demonstration of a pro-Palestinian protest in London a few days ago which was widely reported in the mainstream media - so if a small minority of them behaved the way they did in the video, it’s legitimate news whether we like the content or not.



What concerns me more are the comments that followed @carlzeis post where several posters called everyone in the video ‘vermin’ - which came across as islamophobic to me - but also perhaps included the Israeli protester who waved a Star of David flag in the face of these Palestinian protesters - who’d been given a very strict route to march down - just prior to getting chased down the road who knows what the posters meant? - After 50yrs or more of unresolved violent conflict, passionate feelings (and even hatred) are inevitably high in the UK population of Jews and Palestinians and will be severely triggered by this War for a number of different reasons. However, whether we agree with them or not, people are not ’vermin’ nor can we stiffle freedom of speech on here by intimidating people into not speaking when all they have done is post a legitimate news video up and made some biased or uninformed comments provided it doesn’t fall under the definition of racial discrimination whether it be anti-semitic or Islamophobic or be deemed to condone terrorism and violence - whatever their motive for posting.

I don’t envy the Mods having to moderate this thread on a topic around such incredibly emotive issues that effects us all but they’ve done a sterling job so far IMO - as have the police in weeding out extremist protestors so the majority can still exercise their civil liberties in support those who are unable to.

I guess you're not familiar with the posting history of Carl Zeiss, who often shares videos with the aim of denigrating particular groups.

The fact it led to others using words like "vermin" was job done as far as he's concerned.

 

[Nixonator]

Dear oh dear. There are some pretty shocking views put forth on this thread.

Terrible indictment of just how naively impressionable people are.

 

[carlzeiss]

I guess you're not familiar with the posting history of Carl Zeiss, who often shares videos with the aim of denigrating particular groups.

The fact it led to others using words like "vermin" was job done as far as he's concerned.

For balance , here is a report of a man being arrested at the Hamas march in London on Saturday for allegedly " shouting racist abuse at crowd and Police "

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/met-police-arrested-union-flag-27912350

 

[Machiavelli]

When I read your entry I thought it was some kind of sick joke. I can cope with that. It is the internet and to be expected at times.

Back in WWII the Americans dropped leaflets with similar instructions on Japanese cities. I find it quite shocking that anyone could consider this a great act of benevolence in present circumstances, especially given that a convoy was bombed yesterday and a number, including children, died.

Folk here are simply expressing concern over clear violations of international law and the suffering that this response to the atrocities is causing. Yet you present it as if it is some act of great kindness. I can't get my head round that.

I think he's saying that Hamas kills barbarically, whereas Israel kills benevolently. I see the word kills and then the qualification with loaded adjectives. Unfortunately many are swayed by the loaded adjectives.

 

[Machiavelli]

Dear oh dear. There are some pretty shocking views put forth on this thread.

Terrible indictment of just how naively impressionable people are.

I've followed a lot of this thread, and found that the vast majority are trying to explain their points and perspectives, and nuance their responses. Your post doesn't fall into that category but, yes I agree, some shocking views have been expressed on this thread.

 

[Zeberdi]

I guess you're not familiar with the posting history of Carl Zeiss, who often shares videos with the aim of denigrating particular groups.

The fact it led to others using words like "vermin" was job done as far as he's concerned.

No, and I’ve been here before with not knowing the back stories - so fair enough if posters have ‘previous’ - and based on how he has expressed his views to date on this thread, I can I totally understand the antipathy - (I guess the SF and maybe LivingbyTheSea’s history is the same which has spilled out into this thread but not one I was familiar with either).

Edited in the light of Carl Zeis’ subsequent posts .. ..

 

[Zeberdi]

For balance , here is a report of a man being arrested at the Hamas march in London on Saturday for allegedly " shouting racist abuse at crowd and Police "

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/met-police-arrested-union-flag-27912350

How’s that balance ? In the first video post you sought to generally demonise Palestinian protest in the second, you use another video to double down on view that conflates all Palestinian protestors with terrorists by calling a Palestinian Peace march a Hamas march?

Hamas are a terrorist group that DO NOT represent the Palestinian people - they’ve been killing them for years with impunity and they definitively are not looking for a peaceful outcome to the conflict which the majority of Palestinians want.

(Im sure the Police have/are weeding out the minority who do show to be supporting Hamas‘s terrorist activities and they are/will be swiftly dealt with

as ANYONE guilty of inciting racial hatred towards the Palestinians should be.)

 

[El Presidente]

I think he's saying that Hamas kills barbarically, whereas Israel kills benevolently. I see the word kills and then the qualification with loaded adjectives. Unfortunately many are swayed by the loaded adjectives.

TBF Israel sends you a leaflet before they benevolently kill you. Which according to their biggest fan on NSC makes them the good guys.

Hamas are opportunistic scumbags who use their people as sandbags, but that doesn’t justify those sandbags being killed as collateral damage.

 

[carlzeiss]

How’s that balance ? In the first video post you sort to generally demonise Palestinian protest in the second, you use another video to double down on view that conflates all Palestinian people protestors with terrorists by calling a Palestinian Peace march a Hamas march?

Hamas are a terrorist group that DO NOT represent the Palestinian people - they’ve been killing them for years with impunity and they definitively are not looking for a peaceful outcome to the conflict which the majority of Palestinians want.

(Im sure the Police have/are weeding out the minority who do show to support Hamas‘s terrorist activities and they are/will be swiftly dealt with as ANYONE guilty of inciting racial hatred should be.)

Sorry , the instance of the chap with the Union Jack allegedly using racist language was all I could find from the sources that I tend to view .
Perhaps there are video clips of protesters being attacked that I haven't seen though .
Anyway if those in the clip attacking the peep with the Israeli flag or others that were injuring Police officers feel that they have been demonized then too bad

 

[LamieRobertson]

Strike on civilian convoy fleeing Gaza: What we know from verified video

Women and children were killed in Friday's strike on vehicles that were heading away from northern Gaza.

www.bbc.co.uk

See how Steve F justifies this. He'll probably say it's fake news

How’s that balance ? In the first video post you sought to generally demonise Palestinian protest in the second, you use another video to double down on view that conflates all Palestinian people protestors with terrorists by calling a Palestinian Peace march a Hamas march?

Hamas are a terrorist group that DO NOT represent the Palestinian people - they’ve been killing them for years with impunity and they definitively are not looking for a peaceful outcome to the conflict which the majority of Palestinians want.

(Im sure the Police have/are weeding out the minority who do show to be supporting Hamas‘s terrorist activities and they are/will be swiftly dealt with

as ANYONE guilty of inciting racial hatred towards the Palestinians should be.)

The man concerned MR Behesti has already claimed that one of the those threatening to behead him had been arrested …apparently he was also carrying a large knife …hopefully the others involved will also be found.

 

[Zeberdi]

Sorry , the instance of the chap with the Union Jack allegedly using racist language was all I could find from the sources that I tend to view .
Perhaps there are video clips of protesters being attacked that I haven't seen though .
Anyway if those in the clip attacking the peep with the Israeli flag or others that were injuring Police officers feel that they have been demonized then too bad

You misunderstand- it was you calling the march a ‘Hamas‘ march which perpetuates a belief that all Palestinians are terrorists that was what I was challenging you on - it wasn’t and they aren’t - it was a Palestinian peace March.

There is extremism in perspectives at both ends and in the UK a minority of those those do support terror activity to achieve their aims even if it’s not them carrying out the attacks. Ive met them on both sides over the years - both Israeli and Palestinian who have links to political and religious extremism in Israel and Palestine - including to the Israeli government’s Religious Zionist supporters - But it’s not the majority of Palestinians or Jews that feel that way…and any that in the UK are and will be weeded out.

Im obviously not condoning extremist violence in any shape or form but that should not be the whole narrative with regard to the Palestinian protests

- as far as managing race relations, it’s a risky strategy

 

[A1X]

It has to be said, Israel’s words and actions aren’t exactly those of a nation not planning to attack civilians…

 

[Bakero]

The latest Rest is Politics, featuring an interview with Yuval Noah Hari, is worth a listen if you've got 45 minutes.

https://spotify.link/wna8gXmAWDb