[News] Middle East conflict

[Steve Foster]

A link and extract to an article sent to me by a Jewish relative earlier

JEWISH GRIEF MUST NOT BE USED AS A WEAPON OF WAR “
“It is in our tradition to sit shiva for seven days—to pause to reflect and to mourn. But I cannot sit back while Jewish grief and trauma is weaponized by the Israeli government to destroy Gaza. As I write this, Israel just announced that the 1.1 million Palestinians in northern Gaza—half of them children—will have 24 hours to flee, which the UN has already deemed impossible. The US government is beating the drums of war, rushing to send more weapons to the Israeli military to wreak utter devastation.

We do not need to choose between grieving and acting. As our forebears taught us, we must mourn the dead by fighting like hell for the living.

Make no mistake: The Israeli government is using genocidal rhetoric against Palestinians. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu asserted: What we will do to our enemies will reverberate for generations.” The Israeli minister of defence announced the complete and total closure of Gaza, saying, “No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we act accordingly.” The Israeli president is refusing to distinguish between Palestinian civilians and Hamas fighters.

We as Jews know all too well how dangerous this rhetoric is, the way in which the unthinkable becomes acceptable when we deny people their humanity.”


Full text here

Jewish Grief Must Not Be Used as a Weapon of War

We are in mourning this week—but we cannot sit back while Israel uses our trauma as a reason to destroy Gaza.

www.thenation.com

Perhaps the relative can knock on the door at the Gaza crossing & politely ask for the many citizens held hostage to be returned & then Mr Netanyahu may not send his army in?

 

[Frutos]

That wasn't my question.

I'll ask again, just for clarity:

Is making Islamophobic 'jokes' acceptable in Judaism?

I'm not interested in your personal opinion as to their acceptability.

@Steve Foster - I appreciate that there were various sub-threads going on last night, so I thought I'd just remind you that you still haven't answered my question.

I've quoted it for you (see above) to make it straightforward.

As I said before, its a yes or no.

 

[Zeberdi]

I do feel that many western governments are often very wary of appearing anything but pro Israel due to the lessons of history.

Yes, there is that - and the same goes of course for all Jews - but it also serves as a reminder that genocide has occurred since - up to a million Tutsis in the Rwandan Civil War, Srebrenica in Bosnia 1995, Rohingyas in Myanmar (still ongoing), the ethnic cleansing in Darfur (ongoing) , the genocide of Yezid, Christian and Shia Muslims by Isis in Syria and Iraq

- and now most certainly, there will be those that will see the War in Gaza, while maybe not ‘genocidal’ in it’s intent, is at least in it’s effect - the enforced 24hr evacuation of half the population of Gaza, (impossible to achieve without devastating humanitarian consequences), under circumstances that mean they may never be allowed back - one of the most vulnerable populations on earth being displaced or killed by one of the strongest military powers.

 

[Zeberdi]

Perhaps the relative can knock on the door at the Gaza crossing & politely ask for the many citizens held hostage to be returned & then Mr Netanyahu may not send his army in?

Don’t be facile.

Are you now making digs at my relative and the Jewish writer, in addition to the comments you’ve made previously against myself and those who don’t support this massacre by Bibi and his extremist minions? Because it sounds like it tbh from the tone of your post.

Netanyahu, by his own admission, is not waging war on Hamas to rescue Israeli citizens - Do you think he gives a sh&t about them? Over 500 kids have been killed as ’collateral damage’ in his destruction of Gaza under the auspices of a dubiously achievable mission to ’search and destroy’ Hamas.

 

[Justice]

David Lammy also didn’t want to answer the question is Israel committing war crimes. Err Err as I said before Israel has the right to defend herself, labour are as pathetic as the the current mob.

 

[Steve Foster]

@Steve Foster - I appreciate that there were various sub-threads going on last night, so I thought I'd just remind you that you still haven't answered my question.

I've quoted it for you (see above) to make it straightforward.

As I said before, its a yes or no.

See #1382 & stop harassing me.

 

[Hugo Rune]

David Lammy also didn’t want to answer the question is Israel committing war crimes. Err Err as I said before Israel has the right to defend herself, labour are as pathetic as the the current mob.

Indeed.

This is the closest he got.

"However, it's hugely important that is done within international law," Lammy says.

He needs to be condemning the slaughter of hundreds of innocent children in Gaza.

 

[Frutos]

See #1382 & stop harassing me.

A true politician - avoids answering a direct question, then attacks the questioner.

I think we all know why.

 

[Steve Foster]

Don’t be facile.

Are you now making digs at my relative and the Jewish writer, in addition to the comments you’ve made previously against myself and those who don’t support this massacre by Bibi and his extremist minions? Because it sounds like it tbh from the tone of your post.

Netanyahu, by his own admission, is not waging war on Hamas to rescue Israeli citizens - Do you think he gives a sh&t about them? Over 500 kids have been killed as ’collateral damage’ in his destruction of Gaza under the auspices of a dubiously achievable mission to ’search and destroy’ Hamas.

I Disagree with you. The Israeli Government, USA, UK Government & Opposition all disagree too.
Israel has a right to defend itself from tyranny & a few posters on a football forum several thousand miles are not going to hold sway.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I Disagree with you. The Israeli Government, USA, UK Government & Opposition all disagree too.
Israel has a right to defend itself from tyranny & a few posters on a football forum several thousand miles are not going to hold sway. View attachment 168089View attachment 168090

Slaughtering of children is ok then?

US and UK governments are hardly a good bench mark when it comes to making the right decisions regarding conflicts and a peaceful resolution.

 

[Zeberdi]

I Disagree with you. The Israeli Government, USA, UK Government & Opposition all disagree too.
Israel has a right to defend itself from tyranny & a few posters on a football forum several thousand miles are not going to hold sway. View attachment 168089View attachment 168090

Where have I said (OR ANYONE ON HERE SAID) that Israel doesn’t have a right to defend itself? I get you have differing views to me but please don’t twist my words or impute meaning where its not meant …

Of course she does ….but do you honestly think again, that the whole population of Gaza should be collectively punished for Hamas’s attack and bombed back into the stone age?

If so, you are condoning numerous war crimes and probably, for all intents and purposes, genocide.

Lets just beg to differ

It’s going round in circles and circles now …………..

 

[Hugo Rune]

I Disagree with you. The Israeli Government, USA, UK Government & Opposition all disagree too.
Israel has a right to defend itself from tyranny & a few posters on a football forum several thousand miles are not going to hold sway.

There is a ‘right to defend’ itself and there is breaking international law. Labour has come out against Israel breaking international law this morning. You should do the same.

I can’t see many (if any) posters on this forum against the annihilation of Hamas, it’s fighters and it’s leadership.

It’s the murdering of hundreds (and maybe soon to be thousands) of innocent Palestinian children by Israel that people have a problem with.

Edit:
This is how a reasonable western democracy deals with this sort of atrocity:

 

[Justice]

Indeed.

This is the closest he got.

"However, it's hugely important that is done within international law," Lammy says.

He needs to be condemning the slaughter of hundreds of innocent children in Gaza.

The trouble is the current trend for politicians is to virtue signal with statements like I stand with Ukraine, Israel etc
Once said there is no going back utterly pathetic way to run a government.

 

[LamieRobertson]

A true politician - avoids answering a direct question, then attacks the questioner.

I think we all know why.

Very helpful

 

[Wardy's twin]

I think that assessment of Israel’s ‘psychological perspective’ is probably true and is borne out of a history of persecution and as you say, being a small island of unique ethno-religious culture in the ME - there is always a risk but I think no less so than the risk Ukraine is to Russia that has justified Russia’s attempted genocide of that nation and it’s illegal annexation of the Crimea - it’s also true of Islamic Radical Jihadist terror groups that they want Israel to take a flying jump into the sea - but thats just what they are - albeit State sponsored terrorists, they are paramilitary terror groups that will not defeat the might of Israel/US military forces.

Governmental geo-politics has moved on from the time where, IMO, it would be even moderately likely that the Countries of Syria, Lebanon or Iran (ie the ‘Axis of Resistance where Hezbollah and Hamas operate) would want to get into a war with the US backed State of Israel. Syria has her own internal problems and is devastated from the Syrian civil war and earthquake, Lebanon is still economically devastated from previous conflict - Egypt, the Gulf States, eg Bahrain, Quatar, Saudi Arabia etc all have security, social, trade and petro-economic reasons for wanting to remain on good terms with the West and either already have or are working to ’normalise’ relations with Israel too.

The only issue, In terms of an existential threat to Israel is Iran …even then that’s unlikely but we would be looking at a conflict confrontation on the scale of the Gulf War in 1991 and 2003 Iraq War with similar devastating consequences (actually probably worse) that both Iran and the Israel/US and Western allies would want to avoid and as would the major Arab influence in the region, Jordan and Saudi Arabia - so Israel can do far more than ‘containing‘ 4.5 million Palestinians in conditions ‘all in the name of security’ that repeatedly fail to meet even the basic requirements of civil freedoms and human rights and which create severe, economic, social and humanitarian hardship - she can once and for all, withdraw from that tiny strip of land of Gaza thats a quarter of the size of London and at least concede that to the Palestinians as an Independent State.

Think you are greatly underplaying the threat from Iran, Israelis are shit scared that Iran will do something be it nuclear, chemical or biological. But even if you feel that is unlikely let's concentrate on Hamas and Hezbollah, the latter is a very powerful military organisation which might not defeat Israel militarily but it will inflict many thousands of casualties.

Most Israelis are caught in a trap, same as the Palestinians, they have grown up used to conflict which has threatened their existence but there were still many who thought peace was the way to go. That number will have been greatly reduced over the last week. Similarly a new generation of Hamas will be created out of this.

 

[Goldstone1976]

There is a ‘right to defend’ itself and there is breaking international law. Labour has come out against Israel breaking international law this morning. You should do the same.

I can’t see many (if any) posters on this forum against the annihilation of Hamas, it’s fighters and it’s leadership.

It’s the murdering of hundreds (and maybe soon to be thousands) of innocent Palestinian children by Israel that people have a problem with.

Why would you expect a current Tory Councillor who previously resigned in spring 2019 over jokes he posted on FaceBook with, inter alia, “Islamaphobic” content to agree with Labour about Israel?

 

[dwayne]

Where have I said (OR ANYONE ON HERE SAID) that Israel doesn’t have a right to defend itself? I get you have differing views to me but please don’t twist my words or impute meaning where its not meant …

Of course she does ….but do you honestly think again, that the whole population of Gaza should be collectively punished for Hamas’s attack and bombed back into the stone age?

If so, you are condoning numerous war crimes and probably, for all intents and purposes, genocide.

Lets just beg to differ

It’s going round in circles and circles now …………..

I guess the real question is what should Israel do now? How many active Hamas members are there ? What % of the people in Palestine have Hamas links?

This misery will go on for years now won't it.

 

[Mustafa II]

It's becoming clearer than ever that Israel is a terrorist state.

Of course, with Hamas being a terrorist group, Israel is probably the lesser of two evils... but not necessarily. We're about to see part of a city home to millions of civilians flattened and countless innocent people killed.

Either way, the world needs to distance itself from Israel. It is outrageous if we continue to call them allies, let alone support them, after what they are doing and what they are about to do.

There is and has always been a peaceful solution to Palestine... the West picked a side and went all in with it. Decades later this is where we are today.

 

[LamieRobertson]

I guess the real question is what should Israel do now? How many active Hamas members are there ? What % of the people in Palestine have Hamas links?

This misery will go on for years now won't it.

Hamas has controlled and have oppressed Palestinians for years …so one imagines quite a few!

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Why would you expect a current Tory Councillor who previously resigned in spring 2019 over jokes he posted on FaceBook with, inter alia, “Islamaphobic” content to agree with Labour about Israel?

‘Jokes’ not just at the expense of Muslim people, but a ‘joke’ quite literally where the ‘punchline’ is that a Muslim life is not worth saving.

The decision to stand again was disgusting on his part, and disgusting on the part of the local conservatives to accept it.

Shameful.