[News] Middle East conflict

[shingle]

Israel exists. Hamas has no military capacity to existentially threaten a state with the 4th or 5th biggest army in the world. What doesn't exist is a viable Palestine state, it is currently the world's biggest prison camp about to be turned into the world's biggest slaughterhouse. The question posed is Palestine's right to exist, not Israel's, the latter is an established fact that no one can change

I agree with much of what you say but it hasn't answered to the question posed. Are you saying 'would have done nothing', as we have the 4/5th biggest army in the world etc etc

 

[Bozza]

I posed a difficult question earlier that no one has tried to answer. I know it's difficult, but has anyone got a suggestion that doesn't begin with 'I know what i wouldn't have done'

If you were the Israeli government how would you have responded on Sunday morning when the full horror of the previous days attacks were becoming apparent.?

I ask this question based on the assumption that people agree with Israel's right to existance. I'm sorry if the first bit sounds facetious, its not meant to be.

I've thought about this from a slightly different angle most of this week...

One morning earlier this week, probably Tuesday, I was out for my regular early morning walk on the Downs with the dog. I nearly always listen to the 5Live breakfast show whilst on this walk and, on that particular day, they interviewed two people.

The first interviewee was in Gaza and spoke about the impact that the Israeli bombing was already having.

The following interviewee was in Israel and her sister was missing, presumed dead or taken hostage. At the very beginning of the interview, she hit back at the caller before her, saying that Gaza had brought it upon themselves and they didn't deserve power, water, medicine etc, and did deserve the might of Israel's army and air force. She was clearly in a terrible place, quite understandable given the fate she imagined had befallen her sister.

This made me wonder: what if, somehow, something similar had happened here. Let's pretend the Isle of Wight (pretty much the same size as Gaza coincidentally) was home to a terrorist organisation that wanted to cause us all harm and, at some point, managed to get in and perform the atrocities that Hamas inflicted on Israel. If I'd lost friends or family or, perhaps even if I hadn't, how would I feel if the RAF took to carpet-bombing the Isle of Wight to take out the terrorists but, also, kill untold others - all innocent bystanders?

Would I, like the Israeli interviewee, essentially think "f*** them all - they all deserve it?" or would I somehow be able to separate the bad guys from the good guys and find it in myself to see the scale of the vengeance as wrong?

I've only been able to conclude that I don't know the answer to that - it's unimaginable.

In the same way, I don't know what Israel should be doing now, but I very much fear for the consequences of the path they seem to be taking.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I posed a difficult question earlier that no one has tried to answer. I know it's difficult, but has anyone got a suggestion that doesn't begin with 'I know what i wouldn't have done'

If you were the Israeli government how would you have responded on Sunday morning when the full horror of the previous days attacks were becoming apparent.?

I ask this question based on the assumption that people agree with Israel's right to existance. I'm sorry if the first bit sounds facetious, its not meant to be.

Okay, I'll have a go at this.

1. Immediate Action
- send every available soldier to the areas of incursion to wipe out or capture every one of the terrorist fighters still on Israeli soil, and protect and assist the traumatised survivors.
- send all available medics to save the injured and vulnerable
- send officials, police and photographers, preferably with neutral UN observers to record each and every atrocity

2. Stage 2
- Reseal all of the points breached in the security wall, to prevent any further incursion
- urgent review of why the warning systems failed so catastrophically

That's what I would have done on Sunday - and frankly is the easy part. What to do next is the hard bit - but it definitely wouldn't be to drop 6,000 bombs on civilian targets (including the hundreds of my own people taken hostage).

 

[Badger Boy]

A dossier released by Iraq Body Count, a project of the U.K. non-governmental non-violent and disarmament organization Oxford Research Group, attributed approximately 6,616 civilian deaths to the actions of U.S.-led forces during the "invasion phase", including the shock-and-awe bombing campaign on Baghdad

I honestly didn't know that, thank you for correcting me.

Ultimately, shows of force might make the folks back home feel more secure but it just changes who is suffering and in so many of the cases it isn't the people who should be. It's heartbreaking watching the footage from Israel and I can't comprehend the barbarity of the attack on the music festival. But the footage from Gaza of regular people surveying the scene of their now smashed to hell buildings and homes is just as devastating. Humanity really is losing in a huge way here and in Ukraine. It's desperately sad how many people are living their daily lives under the immediate and very real threat of death for nothing wrong they've done.

 

[Eeyore]

Three Jewish schools in London close over security fears

The schools in north London are shut due to planned protests in support of Palestinians.

www.bbc.co.uk

You know what really bothers me here ? Well, firstly I can understand the concern in those communities especially as the repugnant excesses of the demonstrations have been shown around the world. But there is something else at work here. The elements of the media who have sought to weaponsise the Jewish folk in this country, under the guise of their outrage at racial prejudice against them, have much to answer for.

I remember well the ongoing attacks against the Labour Party, almost daily. This is not to say there were/are not members of that party who hold anti-Semitic views, there are, but the press successfully painted anyone who spoke for Palestine as being part of the same group. And it continued. The net result was a natural fear and worry and probably an increase in anti-Semitic attacks too.

And here lays the problem. Like every discussion, the extreme elements are the ones who have the loudest voice. Yet the vast majority of folk hold no such position and just want peaceful outcomes. On the one hand you have folk, like the one arrested in Brighton today, in the headlines. On the other hand you have folk who support the obliteration of Gaza. But it's mainly these people who take centre stage. And the press gets off on it.

The UK is overwhelmingly a safe place for Jews as indeed it would be Palestinians. But I can understand how folk might not feel that way. But the finger must be pointed at those who hold the pen for much of this. For they seem to enjoy wielding the sword too.

 

[Giraffe]

It does feel as if some are (deliberately?) equating sympathy for Palestinians with sympathy for Hamas.

Israel was attacked, Hamas are murderers seeking the extinction of Israel, I have absolutely no issue with every single one of their fighters being hunted down and brought to justice.

However, that does not mean that I believe flattening North Gaza is a good idea. There’s plenty of people in any area who aren’t particularly political, they’re losing their homes, businesses and lives.

Hamas’s actions were atrocities, deliberately designed to provoke.
They believe (I fear correctly) that Israel’s response will be indiscriminate enough to foster further hatred against it and increase anti-Israel sentiment.

We (the West) have to stand with Israel. We’re largely the reason they’re there. As such I find our blindness to the misery that has been inflicted on Palestinians over decades at least partially understandable. We can’t afford mixed messaging here without fundamentally undermining our own position. Nonetheless, I’d prefer it if the calls for restraint and a targeted response were a bit louder on both sides of the Atlantic.

Israel is absolutely right to defend itself against aggressors, but I really wish they were treating this more like a targeted police operation than a “scorched earth” military operation. I fear the indiscriminate nature of their response is exactly what Hamas’s leadership was hoping for.

I'm sure ideally they would. But achieving the complete destruction of Hamas and their entire tunnel network which we are all told is extensive must be impossible without the approach they are taking. I can understand why Israel would want to deal with this problem once and for all and rid Gaza of Hamas. If we had our babies being beheaded and burned alive I suspect we would have little concern about how we wiped them from the face of the earth. I doubt they want to kill innocents but I also doubt they have a choice.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Has been happening e.g. 2 Israeli tourists killed in Egypt on day of the attack.

and a massive increase in anti-Semitic attacks in the UK today.

 

[Bozza]

I'm sure ideally they would. But achieving the complete destruction of Hamas and their entire tunnel network which we are all told is extensive must be impossible without the approach they are taking. I can understand why Israel would want to deal with this problem once and for all and rid Gaza of Hamas. If we had our babies being beheaded and burned alive I suspect we would have little concern about how we wiped them from the face of the earth. I doubt they want to kill innocents but I also doubt they have a choice.

The one thing I am sure of is that when Israel have finished their revenge mission: there'll be a whole new generation of people hellbent on exacting revenge on Israel when they get the chance. And they'll be happy to wait until they see the time as right to do that.

 

[Hastings gull]

At what point have Israel gone too far with the untargeted response? American didn't flatten Iraq or Afghanistan after 9/11 (despite being attacked by Saudis), they went after the actual bastards wot done it. Israel are destroying entire tower blocks of homes of innocent people, seemingly deliberately and indiscriminately. The attack on Israel is disgusting, shocking, unbelievable. Inevitably there would and should be an overwhelming response but at some point someone is going to have reign Netanyahu in a bit and end the slaughter he's wreaking with universal global backing.

At what point have Israel gone too far with the untargeted response? American didn't flatten Iraq or Afghanistan after 9/11 (despite being attacked by Saudis), they went after the actual bastards wot done it. Israel are destroying entire tower blocks of homes of innocent people, seemingly deliberately and indiscriminately. The attack on Israel is disgusting, shocking, unbelievable. Inevitably there would and should be an overwhelming response but at some point someone is going to have reign Netanyahu in a bit and end the slaughter he's wreaking with universal global backing.

Terrorist groups should be the target of the response and not the same innocent people murdered in Israel by Hamas.

Yes, you are quite right -Hamas should be the target, and rightly so. But if the Israelis simply bomb a house or two, shoot off a couple of bullets, and say boo to appease the rest of the world, understandably desperate to avoid thousands of deaths, Hamas will not go away and we start all over again, as Hamas will be ever emboldened, knowing that the world will always come down on their side, as they will see it. They are already telling their own not to move away, as they want lots of terrible TV pictures to emerge, which gives them a perceived propaganda victory. If this terrorist organisation is to be finally eliminated, or at least decimated, then, sadly, there seems little alternative than to invade.

But you would then hope that all interested parties might then realise that this decades-long conflict has to end and compromise is needed, and the Israelis also have to modify their attitude towards the Palestinians, if they are not going to stoke up future hatred.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I'm sure ideally they would. But achieving the complete destruction of Hamas and their entire tunnel network which we are all told is extensive must be impossible without the approach they are taking. I can understand why Israel would want to deal with this problem once and for all and rid Gaza of Hamas. If we had our babies being beheaded and burned alive I suspect we would have little concern about how we wiped them from the face of the earth. I doubt they want to kill innocents but I also doubt they have a choice.

This might be unfair, and maybe out of line. Its my genuine impression of the situation though...

I'm absolutely prepared to accept that the Israeli decision makers do not want to kill innocents, in Palestine.

However, I feel that their idea of who they would consider to be 'innocents' in this context might vary quite significantly to my own.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I honestly didn't know that, thank you for correcting me.

Ultimately, shows of force might make the folks back home feel more secure but it just changes who is suffering and in so many of the cases it isn't the people who should be. It's heartbreaking watching the footage from Israel and I can't comprehend the barbarity of the attack on the music festival. But the footage from Gaza of regular people surveying the scene of their now smashed to hell buildings and homes is just as devastating. Humanity really is losing in a huge way here and in Ukraine. It's desperately sad how many people are living their daily lives under the immediate and very real threat of death for nothing wrong they've done.

Collateral damage, a horrible term used to dehumanise the facts is used often. All these poor people from all sides needlessly losing their lives.

 

[nicko31]

I posed a difficult question earlier that no one has tried to answer. I know it's difficult, but has anyone got a suggestion that doesn't begin with 'I know what i wouldn't have done'

If you were the Israeli government how would you have responded on Sunday morning when the full horror of the previous days attacks were becoming apparent.?

I ask this question based on the assumption that people agree with Israel's right to existance. I'm sorry if the first bit sounds facetious, its not meant to be.

A proportionate response, 6000 bombs on many unknown targets, levelling civilian areas and displacing 15% of Gaza's population is not proportionate.

They may feel better after last weeks atrocity but it won't meet what their desired goal.

Hamas IMO have set a trap for Israel and by falling for it they Israel destroy the chance of new relationships with their neighbours and with it opportunities for lucrative trade with UAE, Saudi etc.

 

[Hastings gull]

The one thing I am sure of is that when Israel have finished their revenge mission: there'll be a whole new generation of people hellbent on exacting revenge on Israel when they get the chance. And they'll be happy to wait until they see the time as right to do that.

Yes, as you say, that is certainly the risk. Perhaps the one glimmer of hope might be that other areas of the Middle East are rather more moderate and if the Israelis equally show willing, then there might at last be some sort of peace. If there is a bloodbath in the coming weeks, then it might perhaps have an eventual cathartic effect on all sides, bringing them to the negotiating table, but will it?

 

[chickens]

The one thing I am sure of is that when Israel have finished their revenge mission: there'll be a whole new generation of people hellbent on exacting revenge on Israel when they get the chance. And they'll be happy to wait until they see the time as right to do that.

Exactly this. An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind eventually. (paraphrasing a famous phrase)

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm sure ideally they would. But achieving the complete destruction of Hamas and their entire tunnel network which we are all told is extensive must be impossible without the approach they are taking. I can understand why Israel would want to deal with this problem once and for all and rid Gaza of Hamas. If we had our babies being beheaded and burned alive I suspect we would have little concern about how we wiped them from the face of the earth. I doubt they want to kill innocents but I also doubt they have a choice.

The Israeli army have confirmed that the beheaded babies story is false. I have checked various news sources and cannot find any evidence to prove it is true.

 

[dsr-burnley]

When Hamas surrenders, then Palestine can get on with its life.

Hamas is Nazi Germany, small scale. They kill Jews, they kill homosexuals, they kill anyone they don't like. they don't have elections, they continually run small scale (ie. omly murdering one or two) incursions and rockets fired into Israel. They are evil. That, at least, I hope we can all agree on.

So what should be done to fight them? Should the UK have avoided bombing Germany because they didn't want to kill civilians? Should we have accepted the bombs and rockets fired into the UK and said "we are better than them, we don't need to fight back"? Should we have seen that Germans were short of food and sent them some over? No. And that was the general opinion at the time.

When the Nazis were removed, then Germany recovered. Germany wouldn't have recovered if the Nazi government had been allowed to continue ruling.

 

[dsr-burnley]

The Israeli army have confirmed that the beheaded babies story is false. I have checked various news sources and cannot find any evidence to prove it is true.

That's good news. It's nice to know that they were only shooting dozens of bullets into babies, and not beheading them. Seen the Daily Telegraph (and I dare say other papers) this morning?

 

[cjd]

If Hamas win this battle/war/elimination of Israel, will that result in Iraq and Iran getting along and all the other arab states (Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Egypt etc etc ) that seem to be in permanent conflict becoming peaceful...? And will they be nicer to all their ethnic minorities..?

 

[Hastings gull]

When Hamas surrenders, then Palestine can get on with its life.

Hamas is Nazi Germany, small scale. They kill Jews, they kill homosexuals, they kill anyone they don't like. they don't have elections, they continually run small scale (ie. omly murdering one or two) incursions and rockets fired into Israel. They are evil. That, at least, I hope we can all agree on.

So what should be done to fight them? Should the UK have avoided bombing Germany because they didn't want to kill civilians? Should we have accepted the bombs and rockets fired into the UK and said "we are better than them, we don't need to fight back"? Should we have seen that Germans were short of food and sent them some over? No. And that was the general opinion at the time.

When the Nazis were removed, then Germany recovered. Germany wouldn't have recovered if the Nazi government had been allowed to continue ruling.

We have to be consistent. In order for Nazism to be defeated -and seen by all to be defeated - The Allies insisted on unconditional surrender and the invasion plus bombing of Germany was deemed to be necessary, even though thousands of civilians, who may or may not have been innocent, died as a result. With Hamas hopefully out of the way, sanity might be restored.

 

[nicko31]

The Israeli army have confirmed that the beheaded babies story is false. I have checked various news sources and cannot find any evidence to prove it is true.

Still tragic and I wouldn't put it past Hamas. Just shows again to only trust reliable impartial news sources...