[News] Middle East conflict

[bWize]

The poster in question was banned. He THEN set up this new account, which was immediately banned once identified.

Likely the same poster who is trying to stir up shit towards this forum in the Argus comments.

 

[Insel affe]

sadly it seems most people naturally feel like a default setting you have to pick a side in this situation, I should be a nailed on Israel supporter due to the fact German relatives were killed at Hadamar killing centre in 1941 and 1942, one ancestor I recently discovered, married into a Jewish family and his wife was taken and experimented on and "died" and the other was taken and experimented on as they may have had dementia or learning difficulties (they were German). However I struggle with the actions of the Israeli state and some attitudes of the Jewish fundamentalist as I do any religious ideologies that dictate your dress, what you eat, race, misogyny, homophobic etc etc.

So to be honest, I can't pick a side, and too many are on this thread, there is no right or wrong side, they have both failed themselves, and their people.

 

[Eeyore]

I like to think that I have a balanced view of the situation and I think he quoted many well established facts, not opinions of his.

I have been to Israel many times in the 90's as a press photographer during the intifadas and have seen first hand the situation, I do have sympathy for the Palestinian cause, but I also recognize when horrific crimes have been committed against innocent Jewish people without resorting to whataboutery

I'm not sure that highlighting how 1.8 million under a total blockade, running out of food and water, 50, 000 pregnant women unable to access services, no electricity, hospitals unable to function, hundreds of children killed, 6,000 bombs dropped on area that extends the distance of Worthing to Eastbourne, and more than 50% of that population being given 24 hours to shift or face death is engaging in 'whataboutery'.

There is no difference between a Hamas militant and an F35 jet. They both murder innocent people for political reasons.

 

[Bakero]

Likely the same poster who is trying to stir up shit towards this forum in the Argus comments.

View attachment 168009

He really does have issues. I think I remember him posting as Nick Rhodes on here too, possibly leading to a ban.

 

[Bakero]

I like to think that I have a balanced view of the situation and I think he quoted many well established facts, not opinions of his.

I have been to Israel many times in the 90's as a press photographer during the intifadas and have seen first hand the situation, I do have sympathy for the Palestinian cause, but I also recognize when horrific crimes have been committed against innocent Jewish people without resorting to whataboutery

Who on here hasn't recognised horrific crimes committed against Jewish people?

 

[Bozza]

So when I see posts from yourself or other mods confirming duplicate accounts for non humorous purposes, I wonder why they are allowed to continue. But your Board, your rules, which I respect and is why I have spent so many years posting on here.

The only duplicate accounts on here I am aware of, I have already detailed on this thread. Their usage seems to be a bit strange, but not serving to mislead others in any way.

However, given the sheer number of people using NSC, I imagine some people are operating multiple accounts. With diligence, it can be pulled off undetected. Likewise, I'm sure there are previously banned users operating new accounts. I don't know of any but again, I'd guess it's happening.

If and when we notice people using multiple accounts in a nefarious manner we act immediately and decisively.

 

[sparkie]

Likely the same poster who is trying to stir up shit towards this forum in the Argus comments.

View attachment 168009

"NRhodes" has very, very low comprehension abilities if they think there is "very little even acknowledgement of how bad Hamas are" on NSC.


Very odd.

 

[bWize]

sadly it seems most people naturally feel like a default setting you have to pick a side in this situation, I should be a nailed on Israel supporter due to the fact German relatives were killed at Hadamar killing centre in 1941 and 1942, one ancestor I recently discovered, married into a Jewish family and his wife was taken and experimented on and "died" and the other was taken and experimented on as they may have had dementia or learning difficulties (they were German). However I struggle with the actions of the Israeli state and some attitudes of the Jewish fundamentalist as I do any religious ideologies that dictate your dress, what you eat, race, misogyny, homophobic etc etc.

So to be honest, I can't pick a side, and too many are on this thread, there is no right or wrong side, they have both failed themselves, and their people.

I am on the side of both innocent citizen Israelis and Palestinians caught up in this nightmare.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

I don't think we need to get involved with this matter; the only time we've actively supported Israel (after WW2) was during the Suez Crisis in 1956 and I couldn't see the UK returning to the Middle East again after causing the establishment of Israel.
However, the US has supported Israel since 1967 and are, currently, their sole supporter so it is understandable why they are helping; plus they likely have enough strength to prevent this conflict from escalating and if they were unable to, then the UK may get involved.

Whilst I agree re the US, and whilst typing yesterdaywe sent warships and support, we absolutely should be joining the US as a lead on this. These problems have been there ever since we created the Arab states and planted Israel where it is and placed the Jews there. The problems have been there since WW2, it is time to finally resolve them once and for all. If we just sit idly by without pushing for the UN to take action and for us to take a lead with the US, I think that makes us look pretty weak and yet another slap on our reputation. We do a-lot if good foreign policy, probably the best in the world for it, but this is a mistake we made.

 

[AK74]

Likely the same poster who is trying to stir up shit towards this forum in the Argus comments.

View attachment 168009

I vaguely recall a member of NSC with the username of 'Not Nick Rhodes' (or 'Nick Rhodes') a few years ago.

 

[Wardy's twin]

We have to mindful of swallowing some of stories in the fog of war (both sides)

Example 1. This story made the front page of many of our newspapers yet is still unconfirmed. This of course is deliberate propaganda to win hearts and minds.

There is no proof Palestinian fighters ‘beheaded’ babies. The only source is a radical settler.

U.S. and international media outlets are repeating Israeli claims that Palestinian fighters “beheaded” babies. These unverified claims aren’t just sloppy journalism — they are being used to justify a massacre.

mondoweiss.net

You mentioned the pregnant woman with her foetus cut out.

This came from a twitter user who was then community noted - actually quoting the community notes this is ''a report of the Sabra and Shatila massacre of Palestinian people by Israel in 1982''.

Of course Hamas will have killed innocent people of all ages and committed horrible acts but we should more cautious about swallowing everything that we are fed (from both sides)

Remember the Kuwait/Iraqi incubator mass murder story - presented in the US senate. It helped turned US opinion (hearts and minds) against Iraqis. That turned out to be completely false.

The goal is to dehumanise Palestinians and justify the massacres happening and to come.

I have to bring up when you say ''I totally understand that Israel hasn’t treated the Palestinians well over the years''.

''Hasnt treated well' is a gross gross understatement. Apartheid, murder and incarceration is a more accurate description.

Please get the facts correct. The Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila were killed by right wing , Christian Lebanese who hate the Palestinians for destroying their neutral, wealthy country..... yes they were allied to Israel but they have their own forces and agenda.

 

[Bakero]

I vaguely recall a member of NSC with the username of 'Not Nick Rhodes' (or 'Nick Rhodes') a few years ago.

Yeah, that's the one, Not Nick Rhodes.

Now who would create a username based on a musician from Duran Duran?

 

[borat]

Please get the facts correct. The Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila were killed by right wing , Christian Lebanese who hate the Palestinians for destroying their neutral, wealthy country..... yes they were allied to Israel but they have their own forces and agenda.

I stand corrected on that point as it was a joint effort by the Israeli Military with the Lebanese Christian militia.

''The PLO withdrew from Lebanon by September 1, 1982. Assurances were provided by the United States and a multi-national force that the remaining Palestinian refugees and civilians would be protected.

Two weeks later, the Israeli military besieged Sabra and Shatila and provided cover for their allies, a right-wing Lebanese militia called the Phalange, to carry out the mass killings''

This from Wiki (not always accurate I grant)
In February 1983, the Israeli government launched the Kahan Commission to investigate the cause and circumstances of the Sabra and Shatila massacre, and found that Israeli military personnel had failed to take serious steps to stop the killings despite being aware of the militia's actions. The Israeli commission deemed that the IDF was indirectly responsible for the events, and forced erstwhile Israeli defense minister Ariel Sharon to resign from his position "for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge" during the massacre.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Amazed the IDF have not gone in already. Surely just a matter of time?

Little matter of Hezbollah on the north and nort eastern borders waiting to strike if Israel moves most of its forces into Gaza.

 

[Wardy's twin]

I stand corrected on that point as it was a joint effort by the Israeli Military with the Lebanese Christian militia.

''The PLO withdrew from Lebanon by September 1, 1982. Assurances were provided by the United States and a multi-national force that the remaining Palestinian refugees and civilians would be protected.

Two weeks later, the Israeli military besieged Sabra and Shatila and provided cover for their allies, a right-wing Lebanese militia called the Phalange, to carry out the mass killings''

This from Wiki (not always accurate I grant)
In February 1983, the Israeli government launched the Kahan Commission to investigate the cause and circumstances of the Sabra and Shatila massacre, and found that Israeli military personnel had failed to take serious steps to stop the killings despite being aware of the militia's actions. The Israeli commission deemed that the IDF was indirectly responsible for the events, and forced erstwhile Israeli defense minister Ariel Sharon to resign from his position "for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge" during the massacre.

Whilst the IDF was morally wrong in its actions they were desperate to keep the Christians on their side in what was a complicated war. Previously there had been fighting between the 2 groups.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Interesting paper on the treatment by the Israeli state of Ethiopian Jews in regard to the law of return here:

Jewish Illegality: the case of Ethiopian Jews between 1955-1975 - Project on Middle East Political Science

Jewish Illegality: the case of Ethiopian Jews between 1955-1975 Efrat Yerday, Tel Aviv University Ethiopian Jews were present in Israel since its establishment; however, the state did not consider them Jews and, therefore, they were not eligible for Israeli citizenship. Ethiopian Jews who...

pomeps.org

There is of course a very deep Judeo-Christian history in Ethiopia. It likely pre dates European Christianity. Beta Israel (no longer called Falasha Jews since Falasha is deemed offensive as it means wanderer/stranger/outcast in Amharic) trace their lineage back to King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. Remember that the Ark of the Covenant is said to be in Aksum.

Anyway, the paper may answer some of your questions regarding race and ethnicity in regards to Jews, and in particular, Ethiopian Jews.

There are a lot of complexities in this and on face value it might seem that Israel is anti Ethiopian but in reality they have conducted a number of airlifts to take many thousands of them back to Israel....

 

[Wardy's twin]

Leaving aside the size thing, you've mentioned one country in your list that is democratic - Egypt. Furthermore, Israel's democracy has led to four inconclusive elections where the country was basically all but ungovernable and has ultimately led to a situation where Likud is propped up by the likes of the Religious Zionist Party (10.83% of the popular vote). Not dissimilar to when Theresa May was propped up by the DUP and got nothing done to the consternation of both the left and Brexiteers.

While parts of Israel may be considered 'Westernised' (Tel Aviv as we've said on the thread is a liberal, party loving city and home to some incredibly good tech companies) the same can't be said for many other areas including Jerusalem, while the country still operates on a Sunday - Thursday working week, putting it out of step with the West and in line with the rest of the Middle East.

I think it is good to restate that Israel is not an homogeneous entity it's a collection of people who represent wide values who 80% will claim some Jewish ancestry. Unfortunately the rightwing Jewish Zionists hold the balance of power. If more Israeli Arabs voted they would be able to challenge that situation though what this attack has done is shift much opinion to the right and a military response. Key to this is the jewish Israeli mantra 'it will not happen again'.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I think it is good to restate that Israel is not an homogeneous entity it's a collection of people who represent wide values who 80% will claim some Jewish ancestry. Unfortunately the rightwing Jewish Zionists hold the balance of power. If more Israeli Arabs voted they would be able to challenge that situation though what this attack has done is shift much opinion to the right and a military response. Key to this is the jewish Israeli mantra 'it will not happen again'.

I don't disagree and have said similar on other posts.

I was just challenging the statement "Israel is the only westernised, democratic country in the Middle East". Israel is not fully Westernised and there are other democracies. Israel's democracy has provided absolutely no stability either.

 

[Giraffe]

If it was a simple problem to fix it would have been fixed many years ago. Sadly I feel like something massive has to happen for a resolution for future generations, but even more sadly that can only mean pain and suffering for the current. Limping along in the way that it has been for decades cannot be good for anyone.

 

[Giraffe]

What are people's view on Cyprus? An illegal occupation by Turkey had been going on since the 70s. There is no resolution, just an uneasy acceptance which is not internationally recognised and seems wholly unsatisfactory to those Cypriots that lost their home and land.