[News] Middle East conflict

[OzMike]

The manner of the Hamas attacks was atrocious and they would have known at the time of planning, that there would be no way back from this.
I don't condone the response, but I don't blame them either.
Both stuck in medieval times as far as beliefs are concerned.
The type of savagery that is being reported borders on unbeleivable.
Too late to sit around a table now, justice has to be seen to be done.
Despite what we think, it will get worse and all we can do is wonder what the fallout will be.
It is war and innocents always suffer in war, always have done and always will do, right or wrong.

 

[Machiavelli]

My impression (it's just that, an impression) is that there is much sympathy and foreboding for the people of Gaza on here and justifiably in my view. As this is a complex situation, it's important that alternative views are also sought, and this is as good a 'view from Israel' from one of the world's greatest historians:

Israelis and Palestinians are facing their moment of greatest danger since 1948 | Yuval Noah Harari

There is still a slim chance for peace if wiser counsels prevail, and all sides come together in a coalition of the willing, says historian Yuval Noah Harari

www.theguardian.com

 

[nicko31]

Yessssss! Another Guardian reader. We haven't got enough of those on here.

Perhaps if you actually read his post properly you could contribute something more sensible.

 

[OzMike]

Yessssss! Another Guardian reader. We haven't got enough of those on here.

And another patronising barsteward exposed by that response.

 

[OzMike]

As far as 'human rights' are concerned I am afraid Hamas has already kissed those goodbye.

 

[Motogull]

As we approach the fag end of 2023 there are two very obvious heartbreaking conflicts taking place. It looks like the Russians have stopped levelling towns/cities in Ukraine but Israel is full guns blazing in Gaza. One might have hoped that the world could be less destructive by now.

 

[Bozza]

My impression (it's just that, an impression) is that there is much sympathy and foreboding for the people of Gaza on here and justifiably in my view. As this is a complex situation, it's important that alternative views are also sought, and this is as good a 'view from Israel' from one of the world's greatest historians:

Israelis and Palestinians are facing their moment of greatest danger since 1948 | Yuval Noah Harari

There is still a slim chance for peace if wiser counsels prevail, and all sides come together in a coalition of the willing, says historian Yuval Noah Harari

www.theguardian.com

Indeed.

What some don't seem to understand is that it's perfectly possible to find the acts by Hamas utterly horrific and atrocious whilst also believing the Israeli state to be operating in a not-dissimilar way. One group has access to highly sophisticated weaponry enabling them to inflict their terror at arm's length, whilst the other engages in close proximity with guns. The end result of both? Lots of innocent people suffering and dying.

The "you started it" argument doesn't wash with me right now because this whole thing didn't start last weekend - it's been going on for decades - back and forth. Beyond that, it wasn't the general population of Gaza who piled across the border into Israel hellbent on inflicting terror, but it's that general population that is now paying the biggest possible price.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm not sure if levelling Gaza is the right approach. It strikes me that this may only serve to disenfranchise a whole new generation of young person intent on seeking revenge on Israel in the future.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Indeed.

What some don't seem to understand is that it's perfectly possible to find the acts by Hamas utterly horrific and atrocious whilst also believing the Israeli state to be operating in a not-dissimilar way. One group has access to highly sophisticated weaponry enabling them to inflict their terror at arm's length, whilst the other engages in close proximity with guns. The end result of both? Lots of innocent people suffering and dying.

The "you started it" argument doesn't wash with me right now because this whole thing didn't start last weekend - it's been going on for decades - back and forth. Beyond that, it wasn't the general population of Gaza who piled across the border into Israel hellbent on inflicting terror, but it's that general population that is now paying the biggest possible price.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't know if levelling Gaza is the right approach. It strikes me that this may only serve to disenfranchise a whole new generation of young person intent on seeking revenge on Israel in the future.

Quite. Agree with all of this.

I’d just change the first line to “what some don’t seem to WANT to understand …”

 

[nicko31]

Quite. Agree with all of this.

I’d just change the first line to “what some don’t seem to WANT to understand …”

My concern is even you crush Hamas, another one will rise from the ashes. Things were desperate in Gaza before this all started and things are getting a whole lot more desperate by the day.

And desperate people are easily lured by extremists

 

[A1X]

How long does it ACTUALLY TAKE to evacuate 1.1 million people out of interest? Has it even been done before? Maybe in the Hurricane zones of East coast USA? I suspect 24 hours isn't long enough whatever the answer.

I suspect if the UK, as a country with resources and functioning transport infrastructure (not to mention power and the internet to spread the warning to people on the ground) were told, without warning, they had 24 hours to move the entire population of Birmingham to Merseyside I doubt we’d be able to do it. And we have a huge number of advantages over Palestine to do it.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Yessssss! Another Guardian reader. We haven't got enough of those on here.

 

[Justice]

As we approach the fag end of 2023 there are two very obvious heartbreaking conflicts taking place. It looks like the Russians have stopped levelling towns/cities in Ukraine but Israel is full guns blazing in Gaza. One might have hoped that the world could be less destructive by now.

Since last weekends attacks the Russians have regrouped and are now massing troops behind a 1000 miles of the Ukraine/Russia border ready for an invasion. This one is far from over.

 

[cjd]

I'm assuming now, that Hamas will put one hostage in every building they can.

What a clusterfuck this is becoming.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

What is the aim of an Israeli ground invasion and how could it work, in practice?

So they’ve told all of the civilians to evacuate the North half of Gaza, to the South - effectively turning the South into a giant refugee camp (albeit a refugee camp starved of food, water, electricity or medicines). Do they really suppose that all the civilians will leave, and all of the Hamas fighters will stay put, waiting to be wiped out?

The inevitable outcome is surely that a small percentage of fighters will choose to martyr themselves, and remain to engage the IDF in street to street fighting, setting off the traps laid, etc - but that the majority will just retreat amongst the civilian population to the South?

So what next? Send another text message telling the population to move again to an ever smaller parcel of land?

I don’t see how invading half of Gaza achieves anything.

Unless the ultimate aim is to make conditions so completely intolerable, that eventually everybody fights back - and can then all be labelled legitimate targets.

 

[Krafty]

I'm worried about this evacuation.
There are still many who are seriously injured, what should the medics do - leave them behind?
Where are these people meant to go - are they going to be safe from the indiscriminate bombing, if that continues?
I don't think it is feasible to evacuate 1.1 million people from North Gaza in only 24 hours, it could be a walk that lasts over 5 hours and with the limited resources the civilians have (no food, water, electricity and poor transport infrastructure) it makes it even more difficult.

 

[cjd]

What is the aim of an Israeli ground invasion and how could it work, in practice?

So they’ve told all of the civilians to evacuate the North half of Gaza, to the South - effectively turning the South into a giant refugee camp (albeit a refugee camp starved of food, water, electricity or medicines). Do they really suppose that all the civilians will leave, and all of the Hamas fighters will stay put, waiting to be wiped out?

The inevitable outcome is surely that a small percentage of fighters will choose to martyr themselves, and remain to engage the IDF in street to street fighting, setting off the traps laid, etc - but that the majority will just retreat amongst the civilian population to the South?

So what next? Send another text message telling the population to move again to an ever smaller parcel of land?

I don’t see how invading half of Gaza achieves anything.

Unless the ultimate aim is to make conditions so completely intolerable, that eventually everybody fights back - and can then all be labelled legitimate targets.

I'm not a military person in any way at all, but my initial reaction is the Israel government just want to flatten the city from the air.

However, if it is a ground assault they are planning for, I can see why they have only given 24 hours to evacuate. The more time they give to evacuate, Hamas wont be bothering about getting their people to safety, but will no doubt spend the additional time ( if given ) to set booby traps and mines, etc etc etc...


I think...?

 

[Mental Lental]

So what next? Send another text message telling the population to move again to an ever smaller parcel of land?

I don’t see how invading half of Gaza achieves anything.

Unless the ultimate aim is to make conditions so completely intolerable, that eventually everybody fights back - and can then all be labelled legitimate targets.

The cynic in me would not be surprised if they levelled the north and then issued another warning to those left in the south that they've got 24 hours to return back the northern wasteland.

 

[borat]

I’m new to this chat board . I’ve spent about an hour looking through comments on the top few threads .

I must admit other than what I’ve read on the BBC and the Guardian I don’t know much about the history of Israel .

What I’ve seen reported over the last few days though I don’t think I’ve ever seen before in my relatively short life . Babies being killed in front of their mothers , teenagers gunned down at random whilst dancing , whole families having their houses burnt down with them in it and I’m now reading reports that a pregnant woman was found with her womb cut open , the baby still attached by it’s cord and stabbed .

I’ve actually felt quite sick with what I read and I’m not even Jewish .

I totally understand that Israel hasn’t treated the Palestinians well over the years and I know the attacks were from Hamas and not ordinary Palestinians.

It seems to me that the only real way forward is to get rid of Hamas ( by force I presume ) let the Palestinians choose a new govt that is not made up of terrorists and move forward with a 2 state solution where both sets of people can live peacefully and in dignity .

Getting rid of the current Israeli PM would be helpful as well as he seems very right wing and I don’t think he is helping .

What I finding difficult to understand is what appears to be a lack of sympathy from people on this thread about the exceptional level of barbarity that ordinary citizens of Israel were subjected to in the initial attacks

It’s almost like some people have become desensitised to terror.

I’m not a supporter of Israel or any other country other than the UK but I do feel huge sympathy for both the Israelis and Palestinians but a bit more sympathy for the Israelis people that were murdered so violently especially as most seem to not even be military.

We have to mindful of swallowing some of stories in the fog of war (both sides)

Example 1. This story made the front page of many of our newspapers yet is still unconfirmed. This of course is deliberate propaganda to win hearts and minds.

There is no proof Palestinian fighters ‘beheaded’ babies. The only source is a radical settler.

U.S. and international media outlets are repeating Israeli claims that Palestinian fighters “beheaded” babies. These unverified claims aren’t just sloppy journalism — they are being used to justify a massacre.

mondoweiss.net

You mentioned the pregnant woman with her foetus cut out.

This came from a twitter user who was then community noted - actually quoting the community notes this is ''a report of the Sabra and Shatila massacre of Palestinian people by Israel in 1982''.

Of course Hamas will have killed innocent people of all ages and committed horrible acts but we should more cautious about swallowing everything that we are fed (from both sides)

Remember the Kuwait/Iraqi incubator mass murder story - presented in the US senate. It helped turned US opinion (hearts and minds) against Iraqis. That turned out to be completely false.

The goal is to dehumanise Palestinians and justify the massacres happening and to come.

I have to bring up when you say ''I totally understand that Israel hasn’t treated the Palestinians well over the years''.

''Hasnt treated well' is a gross gross understatement. Apartheid, murder and incarceration is a more accurate description.

 

[dwayne]

As a frame of reference. The evacuation of Dunkirk took over 3 days to evacuate 330,000 people. Those poor people aren't even being given a decent chance to get out in time.

Dunkirk was over water !! Just a little different you might agree.

The Israeli's must be bluffing though.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I suspect if the UK, as a country with resources and functioning transport infrastructure (not to mention power and the internet to spread the warning to people on the ground) were told, without warning, they had 24 hours to move the entire population of Birmingham to Merseyside I doubt we’d be able to do it. And we have a huge number of advantages over Palestine to do it.

Well nearly half our population aren't children, for starters