[News] Middle East conflict

[LamieRobertson]

Could you tell me?

The post was not directly referring to you ..so no lol

 

[BadFish]

The Israeli government never ever sought the 'destruction' of any of their neighbours. Because they know above any other nation what it feels like to be on the wrong end of that shitty stick. They only ever sought to protect their citizens from ****s lobbing rockets at them

In terms of actions of Israel this seems to be the nub of the discussion. One side fervently believe this to be the case while others see anything from an over stretch of these goals to a more malevolent oppression of a group of people.

All our posts are informed by where we sit on this continuum.

The problem with this position is that it cannot lead to any kind of peace as it doesn't pay anywhere near equal weighting to each side.

I do wonder how the checkpoints, control of water and power, taking of Palestinian houses and walls being build to restrict movement fits with this narrative. I suppose we are asked to believe that these measures are done in the name of self defence?

 

[RodgerT]

I’m new to this chat board . I’ve spent about an hour looking through comments on the top few threads .

I must admit other than what I’ve read on the BBC and the Guardian I don’t know much about the history of Israel .

What I’ve seen reported over the last few days though I don’t think I’ve ever seen before in my relatively short life . Babies being killed in front of their mothers , teenagers gunned down at random whilst dancing , whole families having their houses burnt down with them in it and I’m now reading reports that a pregnant woman was found with her womb cut open , the baby still attached by it’s cord and stabbed .

I’ve actually felt quite sick with what I read and I’m not even Jewish .

I totally understand that Israel hasn’t treated the Palestinians well over the years and I know the attacks were from Hamas and not ordinary Palestinians.

It seems to me that the only real way forward is to get rid of Hamas ( by force I presume ) let the Palestinians choose a new govt that is not made up of terrorists and move forward with a 2 state solution where both sets of people can live peacefully and in dignity .

Getting rid of the current Israeli PM would be helpful as well as he seems very right wing and I don’t think he is helping .

What I finding difficult to understand is what appears to be a lack of sympathy from people on this thread about the exceptional level of barbarity that ordinary citizens of Israel were subjected to in the initial attacks

It’s almost like some people have become desensitised to terror.

I’m not a supporter of Israel or any other country other than the UK but I do feel huge sympathy for both the Israelis and Palestinians but a bit more sympathy for the Israelis people that were murdered so violently especially as most seem to not even be military.

 

[portslade seagull]

Is this true?

If true it just adds more weight to his buffoon status

 

[Motogull]

If true it just adds more weight to his buffoon status

He's dangerous and no mistake.

 

[Krafty]

What I finding difficult to understand is what appears to be a lack of sympathy from people on this thread about the exceptional level of barbarity that ordinary citizens of Israel were subjected to in the initial attacks

It’s almost like some people have become desensitised to terror.

I'm interested in how you have established this conclusion based upon your readings of this thread?

EDIT: Yep, thought so...

 

[Zeberdi]

I’m new to this chat board . I’ve spent about an hour looking through comments on the top few threads .

I must admit other than what I’ve read on the BBC and the Guardian I don’t know much about the history of Israel .

There will be an unavoidable inherent bias in Western mainstream media reporting for obvious reasons - Israel is a close ally of the West and Hamas is a terrorist organisation that carried out an horrific attack on her sovereign territory - however (not ’but’!) the people now under heavy bombardment are Palestinian civilians worsening what was already a humanitarian crisis under the Occupation, so it is important to understand how it came to this too if there is to be any hope of a lasting peace settlement…

What I’ve seen reported over the last few days though I don’t think I’ve ever seen before in my relatively short life . Babies being killed in front of their mothers , teenagers gunned down at random whilst dancing , whole families having their houses burnt down with them in it and I’m now reading reports that a pregnant woman was found with her womb cut open , the baby still attached by it’s cord and stabbed .

I’ve actually felt quite sick with what I read and I’m not even Jewish .

Yes, it’s horrific - and our sickened response to it is human - nothing to do with needing to be Jewish

I totally understand that Israel hasn’t treated the Palestinians well over the years

- ‘not treating someone well’ is ignoring their phone calls or being rude to them - it doesn’t even begin to describe the circumstances that the Palestinian people have been living under since the Occupation especially in Gaza

let the Palestinians choose a new govt that is not made up of terrorists and move forward with a 2 state solution where both sets of people can live peacefully and in dignity .

That option is arguably unrealistic now in the light of the current conflict and the far right Israeli government’s antipathy to the idea - nor in many people’s views, desirable, unfortunately

The War in Gaza and the Death of the Two-State Solution

The Emeritus Chair offers his views on the ongoing Israel-Hamas war.

www.csis.org

Column: Why Israel is losing me

The collapse of the two-state solution and the threat to democracy from a new governing coalition have made Israel unrecognizable now.

www.latimes.com

What I finding difficult to understand is what appears to be a lack of sympathy from people on this thread about the exceptional level of barbarity that ordinary citizens of Israel were subjected to in the initial attacks

It’s almost like some people have become desensitised to terror.
.

The first point is only your perception - everybody has expressed shock and horror, it’s not something we need to keep doing as a precursor or condition before critically evaluating Israel’s role in the conflict and now her role the Israel-Hamas War - - but it is an issue which is linked to your second point

There probably is a little ‘desensitisation’ here, maybe a lot, I think you are right but we are living in a world where the news and media bombard us daily with images and reports of man’s inhumanity to man via 24 news-hour cycles, watching ‘live war tv’ , the images coming out of Ukraine in the early days were horrific (while it was a major news story) - constant images of protracted violent conflicts, images of refugee populations living in dire conditions, millions dying in pandemics, images of barbaric executions brought to us by terrorists on mobile phones, the list goes on ..

Unfortunately thats the inherent contradiction of the internet - it informs us but ultimately desensitises us just a little bit more day by day - and in doing so, it makes all of us a little less human.

PS. It was pretty obvious immediately to me btw that you were a banned member returning to bait or troll me and others but I decided to run with it and didn’t bite as it gave me the opportunity to respond to charges that have been made a few times previously in a way that hopefully highlights the un-informed bias in these points of view for others to see.

Edit again - see @Bozza has stepped in.

 

[herecomesaregular]

I've read two BBC articles today that featured interviews with individuals who were living in the kibbutz's next to Gaza and who defended them from attack, killing many Hamas. One was ex-special forces and I think the other was also ex military. What struck me was both said they thought most people in Gaza were "good people". If only both populations could be represented by decent leadership, as ever.

 

[RodgerT]

Thanks that’s helpful - you clearly know a lot about this subject

 

[Bozza]

Thanks that’s helpful - you clearly know a lot about this subject

I was going to let this run to see where it ended up, but that's unfair on those who spend their time replying to you in good faith.

You were banned from this thread for good reason, and your duplicitous behaviour here only serves to reinforce that was the right thing to do.

You can hop around various IP addresses, including one in Australia, and post a few throwaway lines on Albion threads to try and blend in, but you slipped up very early on, and it took 10 seconds to identify you.

This account will be banned now. You can message me from your main account explaining why you should be allowed to remain on NSC. If you don't message me, I'll take that as you not wanting to remain on here any longer.

 

[Bakero]

I thought that writing-style and space before full stops looked suspicious. Glad I didn't waste time replying.

 

[1066familyman]

And the Etheopian Jews?

Interesting paper on the treatment by the Israeli state of Ethiopian Jews in regard to the law of return here:

Jewish Illegality: the case of Ethiopian Jews between 1955-1975 - Project on Middle East Political Science

Jewish Illegality: the case of Ethiopian Jews between 1955-1975 Efrat Yerday, Tel Aviv University Ethiopian Jews were present in Israel since its establishment; however, the state did not consider them Jews and, therefore, they were not eligible for Israeli citizenship. Ethiopian Jews who...

pomeps.org

There is of course a very deep Judeo-Christian history in Ethiopia. It likely pre dates European Christianity. Beta Israel (no longer called Falasha Jews since Falasha is deemed offensive as it means wanderer/stranger/outcast in Amharic) trace their lineage back to King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. Remember that the Ark of the Covenant is said to be in Aksum.

Anyway, the paper may answer some of your questions regarding race and ethnicity in regards to Jews, and in particular, Ethiopian Jews.

 

[Seagull27]

Phosphorus is of course an alkali metal, its reacts with moisture. So if you lands on skin it will just keep burning. Its banned under the Geneva convention for use in populated area. Horrendous weapon

I'm very sorry to be pedantic, especially as this contributes absolutely nothing useful to this thread. But Phosphorus is a non-metal.

 

[chip]

Again, customs and ancestry I’d guess .

Again, I think people are confusing race with ethnicity. However, it’s not something I know a huge amount about. I’m applying commonly accepted terms.

The goverment doesn't list Jewish as an ethnicity, does have Arab: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/style-guide/ethnic-groups

Not having a go at you, I just get frustrated with this. If your mother is jewish then you are jewish in many other peoples eyes. Even if you, your mother and grandmother are all atheist/agnostic and you father/grandfather were not believers in fairies. I've experienced the consequences of other people deciding what my "ethnicity" is and it wasn't pleasant. But hey ho, maybe I just can't identify with the Ethopian/Nigerian/Sri Lankan heritage I don't have. I appreciate it helps grouping people into smaller units, but I think it might be better if we could all see each other as the same. We've seen repeatedly the danger of ethnic divisions, and they don't have to be that great for terrible things to happen under the right (wrong?) circumstances.

 

[The Clamp]

I’m new to this chat board . I’ve spent about an hour looking through comments on the top few threads .

I must admit other than what I’ve read on the BBC and the Guardian I don’t know much about the history of Israel .

What I’ve seen reported over the last few days though I don’t think I’ve ever seen before in my relatively short life . Babies being killed in front of their mothers , teenagers gunned down at random whilst dancing , whole families having their houses burnt down with them in it and I’m now reading reports that a pregnant woman was found with her womb cut open , the baby still attached by it’s cord and stabbed .

I’ve actually felt quite sick with what I read and I’m not even Jewish .

I totally understand that Israel hasn’t treated the Palestinians well over the years and I know the attacks were from Hamas and not ordinary Palestinians.

It seems to me that the only real way forward is to get rid of Hamas ( by force I presume ) let the Palestinians choose a new govt that is not made up of terrorists and move forward with a 2 state solution where both sets of people can live peacefully and in dignity .

Getting rid of the current Israeli PM would be helpful as well as he seems very right wing and I don’t think he is helping .

What I finding difficult to understand is what appears to be a lack of sympathy from people on this thread about the exceptional level of barbarity that ordinary citizens of Israel were subjected to in the initial attacks

It’s almost like some people have become desensitised to terror.

I’m not a supporter of Israel or any other country other than the UK but I do feel huge sympathy for both the Israelis and Palestinians but a bit more sympathy for the Israelis people that were murdered so violently especially as most seem to not even be military.

Sure you are.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Not having a go at you, I just get frustrated with this. If your mother is jewish then you are jewish in many other peoples eyes. Even if you, your mother and grandmother are all atheist/agnostic and you father/grandfather were not believers in fairies.

I know it's a common way of saying "I am clever and you are stupid", but referring to God as a fairy is of course very insulting. Yes, it may be that you are right and the majority of the world is wrong, but there are ways and means of saying so, and those ways and means do not have to be offensive.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Would be nice to see us getting involve tbh, US has more balls than we do on this matter. Gaza and the West Bank need to be unified, Hamas demilitarised and exterminated, all lead by the UK and US and the UN. It's WE who placed Israel there and caused all of this crap after WW2.

 

[chip]

I know it's a common way of saying "I am clever and you are stupid", but referring to God as a fairy is of course very insulting. Yes, it may be that you are right and the majority of the world is wrong, but there are ways and means of saying so, and those ways and means do not have to be offensive.

I certainly wasn't trying to belittle anyone, more a reflection of having a religion, and now an ethnicity, foisted upon me. I really don't know if my father believed in anything other than music so fairies seemed as good as anything. FWIW, If you can provide me with empirical evidence of this god then I would accept that it is insulting, but only to that god now proven to exist. Otherwise, I find it insulting to be expected to respect what I generally see as a form OCD or some such malady. We all believe a lot of nonsense and we all have the choice to live by that or something more tolerant, open and free-thinking.

 

[Krafty]

Would be nice to see us getting involve tbh, US has more balls than we do on this matter. Gaza and the West Bank need to be unified, Hamas demilitarised and exterminated, all lead by the UK and US and the UN. It's WE who placed Israel there and caused all of this crap after WW2.

I don't think we need to get involved with this matter; the only time we've actively supported Israel (after WW2) was during the Suez Crisis in 1956 and I couldn't see the UK returning to the Middle East again after causing the establishment of Israel.
However, the US has supported Israel since 1967 and are, currently, their sole supporter so it is understandable why they are helping; plus they likely have enough strength to prevent this conflict from escalating and if they were unable to, then the UK may get involved.

 

[jakarta]

Amazed the IDF have not gone in already. Surely just a matter of time?