Mediterranean migrant deaths and CMD.

[alfredmizen]

You a cynic? NEVER....

Thing is, I'm not going to disclose what happened to a family member on a public forum in order to make a point to someone I don't know.

precisely the reply i expected, the sympathy vote, now as i said before , your either lying or sadly telling the truth, my money is on the former, if sadly , the latter is true, then my point stands, youre a bigger fool than i originally thought.

 

[JCL666]

precisely the reply i expected, the sympathy vote, now as i said before , your either lying or sadly telling the truth, my money is on the former, if sadly , the latter is true, then my point stands, youre a bigger fool than i originally thought.

Whatever.


Sad/foolish/lying


Trying to call me out on an internet forum won't work.

 

[alfredmizen]

Whatever.


Sad/foolish/lying


Trying to call me out on an internet forum won't work.

im not 'calling out' anybody , im simply posting what i think.

 

[Hastings gull]

I am not sensitive at all I just think that you are misrepresenting people. Why is it obvious that immigrants would have nothing on them and need to be fed and educated? Are you talking about Asylum Seekers here? I would imagine that the vast majority of immigrants arrive in their new country with most of their worldly possession in tow, well fed from the plane journey and with all of their previous education in tact. I certainly did.

Are you being serious? Those pathetic folk in Italy, all wading ashore with their own lap tops, pets, I pads and lounge furniture! That's what I was talking about. I think at times we are talking about different groups, but even immigrants from the Third World to the UK on a plane -how much would they have? Do you seriously believe that those in Calais for example will have ample education to draw on? Your situation is entirely different to theirs and can hardly be compared to either refugees or asylum seekers or immigrants or whatever title we want, from poor Third World countries. And you say that I am misrepresenting a situation!

 

[Hastings gull]

It doesn't matter who has paid what for however many years. For example: I pay a lot of tax and NI. Much more (to date) than I or my family have "taken out"
So I am paying for "other folk" already, that is hard to reconcile at times, but I accept it because I believe in altruism and empathy, and because I believe that should I need help, "other folk" will help me.

This "soft target" label is a bit lame. It's not that we are seen as a soft target, that's just the medias way of manipulating what is going on. We are seen as a great place to live, that we care for those that need help, and that if you work hard you can achieve.

"Easily trotted out". No not at all. It is far easier to say "They should all **** off back to their own country".

I see your point about paying into the system, and probably much the same applies to me. I too accept that others will need to draw far more on the Social security budget, who are far more in need that I or my family. As you say, payback could well be needed. The question is where does one's altruism end? You would not say no to anyone entering the country and are clearly quite happy contributing what would be larger sums, for probably millions, given that you see no reason for a quota and would not turn anyone away. Is this really what you want? I suspect that that even you would say enough is enough.
As to whether we are seen as a great place in which to live, I am sure that this is true, but the same standards of care and potential to achieve could be said for France and Belgium, and yet thousands clamour to come here instead, camping out in all weathers in Calais. Why? There has to be another reason.
Ok -f off to your own country is also easily trotted out, granted, but so is what you are advocating; it all has to be paid for, and there is always the issue of fairness.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

[/B]

Are you being serious? Those pathetic folk in Italy, all wading ashore with their own lap tops, pets, I pads and lounge furniture! That's what I was talking about. I think at times we are talking about different groups, but even immigrants from the Third World to the UK on a plane -how much would they have? Do you seriously believe that those in Calais for example will have ample education to draw on? Your situation is entirely different to theirs and can hardly be compared to either refugees or asylum seekers or immigrants or whatever title we want, from poor Third World countries. And you say that I am misrepresenting a situation!

You still seem to be confusing immigrants with asylum seekers and refugees.

 

[Hastings gull]

You still seem to be confusing immigrants with asylum seekers and refugees.

Yes, I accept that at one stage I did not make that clear earlier in the day, but the main point is that for your average Brit this is irrelevant, which Badfish was gracious enough to recognise. But what is your point, after having read my post?

 

[BadFish]

Yes, I accept that at one stage I did not make that clear earlier in the day, but the main point is that for your average Brit this is irrelevant, which Badfish was gracious enough to recognise. But what is your point, after having read my post?

To be fair I recognised that many Brits felt this distinction was irrelevant not that the distinction is/B] irrelevant. The distinction is in fact very important if you wish to discuss these issues. One group of people are Refugees who have left their home lands in fear of their live and are moving to a host country until it is safe to return home. The others are migrants who are leaving their home country for wide range of reasons to permanently reside in their host countries.

 

[BadFish]

[/B]

]Are you being serious? Those pathetic folk in Italy, all wading ashore with their own lap tops, pets, I pads and lounge furniture! That's what I was talking about. I think at times we are talking about different groups, but even immigrants from the Third World to the UK on a plane -how much would they have? Do you seriously believe that those in Calais for example will have ample education to draw on?

Of course I am being serious, Because once again you were confusing which group of people you were talking about as in your post it wasn't clear. In this part of your post it it clear that you are talking about Asylum Seekers.

For the record I see no reason that those people in Calais would necessarily be uneducated. I would imagine that within that group their is a wide range of different educational levels.

Your situation is entirely different to theirs and can hardly be compared to either refugees or asylum seekers or immigrants or whatever title we want, from poor Third World countries. And you say that I am misrepresenting a situation!

And this i think is the issue. The title we give these people is not 'whatever we want' they are given the title based on their reasons for coming to a new country (as explained in the post above). If you are not making the distinction between the two groups and suggesting that Refugees are going to their host countries for economic reasons or that immigrants are arriving uneducated and with nothing then you are misrepresenting both groups and doing both groups a disservice.

To use my example: My situation cannot be compared with Asylum Seekers or Refugees but it can be compared with immigrants because I am a immigrant.

 

[looney]

To be fair I recognised that many Brits felt this distinction was irrelevant not that the distinction is/B] irrelevant. The distinction is in fact very important if you wish to discuss these issues. One group of people are Refugees who have left their home lands in fear of their live and are moving to a host country until it is safe to return home. The others are migrants who are leaving their home country for wide range of reasons to permanently reside in their host countries.

How are these distinctions relevant to impacts on population density and scarece resources?

Why are you so intent on lecturing the population of the country that you left?

 

[BadFish]

How are these distinctions relevant to impacts on population density and scarece resources?

They make little difference to population density but in terms of resources they impact a little because Asylum Seekers are not allowed to work so are in need of some kind of welfare while their applications are being processed. This obviously is not the case to Immigrants.

I think the distinction is important and as I have mentioned throughout the thread there are more factors than the two that you have picked out.

 

[looney]

They make little difference to population density but in terms of resources they impact a little because Asylum Seekers are not allowed to work so are in need of some kind of welfare while their applications are being processed. This obviously is not the case to Immigrants.

I think the distinction is important and as I have mentioned throughout the thread there are more factors than the two that you have picked out.

I didn't pick out the 2 i just pointed out they can be addressed together, also the apriori question is how many do we want to take not how many can come and why, thats due to people being here are sovereign.

Which leads me back to the other question you dodged, why are you so intent on lecturing the country and people you left?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

'Thread: Mediterranean migrant deaths and CMD.'

Not ploughed through all dozen pages but I'm sure most posters are/were as as me about the ever-so-clever unnecessary use of 'CMD' in the thread title.

So - because somebody had to - I looked it up.

I'm guessing it may refer to, from the available wiki options:

Catastrophe à moyens dépassé, a French phrase meaning "disaster without sufficient rescue means"

Though it may also refer to any of the following...

CMD.EXE (Command Prompt), the command-line interpreter on Windows operating systems
Command (computing), an abbreviation commonly used in computing
Command key (⌘), a modifier key present on Apple Keyboards
CMD file (CP/M), the filename extension used by executable programs
Camden Road railway station, a station in London, England (National Rail code: CMD)
Catastrophe à moyens dépassé, a French phrase meaning "disaster without sufficient rescue means"
Center for Media and Democracy, an American nonprofit liberal watchdog group
Chairman and managing director, a managing director who is also the chairman of the same company
Cincinnati Mighty Ducks, an American ice hockey team
Congenital muscular dystrophy, a form of muscular dystrophy that is present from birth
Coleg Meirion-Dwyfor, a college in Gwynedd, Wales
Creative Micro Designs, a computer hardware company
Capital Markets Day, finance
C.M.D. or Cmd, a Command paper, published by the UK government
Càrn Mòr Dearg, a hill connected to Ben Nevis by the CMD Arête.

 

[BadFish]

I didn't pick out the 2 i just pointed out they can be addressed together, also the apriori question is how many do we want to take not how many can come and why, thats due to people being here are sovereign.

Which leads me back to the other question you dodged, why are you so intent on lecturing the country and people you left?

I didn't dodge it, I ignored it as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion being held. If you are that interested feel free to PM me and we can discuss it there.

If you are talking about the distinction as linked to the original question then I think that it is vital that the distinction is clear as Asylum Seekers are its main subject.

 

[looney]

I didn't dodge it, I ignored it as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion being held. If you are that interested feel free to PM me and we can discuss it there.

.

Its not irrelevant at all. Firstly you have been quick to impinge motives for people holding particular views, including calling me a racist the first time you found yourself out of your depth intellectually with me.

Secondly It does not concern any private behaviour or information that warrants private discussion, you are posting i this manner publicly so I am asking the question publicly.

I am not even insinuating anything as you have in the past just asking. so for the third time, why do you feel the need to constantly argue or berate the people of a country you left for a new life on the other side of the world?

 

[BadFish]

Its not irrelevant at all. Firstly you have been quick to impinge motives for people holding particular views, including calling me a racist the first time you found yourself out of your depth intellectually with me.

Secondly It does not concern any private behaviour or information that warrants private discussion, you are posting i this manner publicly so I am asking the question publicly.

I am not even insinuating anything as you have in the past just asking. so for the third time, why do you feel the need to constantly argue or berate the people of a country you left for a new life on the other side of the world?

I disagree with both the premise of your question and the fact that you have decided to derail a thread with your particular form of trolling to ask it.

If you don't like my posting style then ignore it, if you wish to discuss it further then feel free to PM me.

 

[Hastings gull]

Of course I am being serious, Because once again you were confusing which group of people you were talking about as in your post it wasn't clear. In this part of your post it it clear that you are talking about Asylum Seekers.

For the record I see no reason that those people in Calais would necessarily be uneducated. I would imagine that within that group their is a wide range of different educational levels.



And this i think is the issue. The title we give these people is not 'whatever we want' they are given the title based on their reasons for coming to a new country (as explained in the post above). If you are not making the distinction between the two groups and suggesting that Refugees are going to their host countries for economic reasons or that immigrants are arriving uneducated and with nothing then you are misrepresenting both groups and doing both groups a disservice.

To use my example: My situation cannot be compared with Asylum Seekers or Refugees but it can be compared with immigrants because I am a immigrant.

I understand that the title you give them represents what they are, of course I do. I think you fully realised that my comment of whatever we want to call them reflect the various titles, not that you can call any group whatever you want, and thus label them incorrectly, as you point out. I think you are being very naïve if you see no reason why the group in Calais should be uneducated. Given that they are likely not to have been successful at home and then in a Third World country, it is quite likely that their level of education will be less than in the UK. Of course it might be that some are highly educated, but is it really that you can see no reason at all? Yes, I see that your situation cannot be compared to that of a refugee or an Asylum Seeker, but neither can you be compared with immigrants on the quayside in Calais - and you say that I misrepresent folk! You are an immigrant, granted, but the circumstances of your immigration are vastly different to that of those lorry-hopping in Calais, as you well know.

 

[BadFish]

I understand that the title you give them represents what they are, of course I do. I think you fully realised that my comment of whatever we want to call them reflect the various titles, not that you can call any group whatever you want, and thus label them incorrectly, as you point out. I think you are being very naïve if you see no reason why the group in Calais should be uneducated. Given that they are likely not to have been successful at home and then in a Third World country, it is quite likely that their level of education will be less than in the UK. Of course it might be that some are highly educated, but is it really that you can see no reason at all? Yes, I see that your situation cannot be compared to that of a refugee or an Asylum Seeker, but neither can you be compared with immigrants on the quayside in Calais - and you say that I misrepresent folk! You are an immigrant, granted, but the circumstances of your immigration are vastly different to that of those lorry-hopping in Calais, as you well know.

Those people in Calais are Asylum Seekers. Other immigrants would have papers and visas etc etc so they would not need to be hopping on lorries.

 

[looney]

Those people in Calais are Asylum Seekers. Other immigrants would have papers and visas etc etc so they would not need to be hopping on lorries.

they are not. Genuine asylum seekers head for the nearest safe haven. European Law says they are supposed to apply at the first country they arrive at, they are criminals.

so what are your motives for continually posting uninformed opinions in these types of threads seeing you've departed to the other side of the world?

 

[cunning fergus]

Of course this is how you would react, and presumably I would too, I imagine. But that still does not give them the right to turn up in Europe and say house, feed, educate me etc. It is a very difficult situation. And yes they are human beings, deservous of dignity etc. During the 7 leader debate, she in Scotland whom you would not wish to meet on a dark night, rounded on Farage, who claimed that 6000 Aids sufferers being treated on the NHS were foreigners, saying that they were human beings and that he should be ashamed of himself. All well and good. But that is not necessarily how others see it. Assuming that the figure of 6000 is correct - and it was not challenged - that would have implications for the funding of treatment for other folk, who had paid national insurance contributions, possibly for decades. If your loved one received less than perfect treatment, or you were told that the cash could not be spared to pay for expensive drugs to prolong life, then you read about what I assume is health tourism, you would be far less likely to take an altruistic view. You would see this as blatantly unfair.
You feel that immigrants should never be turned away -so you would accept hundreds of thousands on an annual basis, and of course admit ever more as they see you as a soft target. I submit that this is a very irresponsible attitude. Easily trotted out, however.

For the record Farage claimed that it was 60k non UK nationals that were receiving £25k of NHS treatment p.a. for AIDS and his figures were correct.

In the "debate" that followed it was telling that no one had him exposed on the numbers, merely that he was disgusting for raising such a matter, as if this money spent was not relevant to the ongoing narrative of the NHS in crisis.

It struck me that this episode proved Orwells maxim that "in times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act".