[Football] Mason Holgate.

[Commander]

I don’t think you’re getting it.

No-one is saying that racism (whether online or in person) is non existent in this country. Even in the examples you mentioned, it’s been reported and even Southgate mentioned, that the majority of the racist abused stemmed from outside the UK.

Here’s a link - although I’m sure you’ll find another example to suit your agenda.

Majority of racist abuse targeting England players ‘from outside UK’

The majority of the racist trolling targeting England footballers has emanated from overseas accounts, according to expert analysis.

metro.co.uk

No-one on this thread is saying the UK is perfect, or anywhere close to it. We as a country have a lot still to do, but saying other countries/areas may be worse for racism isn’t saying that it’s non existent in this country.

FWIW - I think when online racist abuse does happen in this country it’s dealt with very seriously by police. The abuse that stems from outside the country is a lot harder to convict (partly due to the attitudes of said countries).

Exactly this. Just look at how FIFA deal with racism in stadiums compared to how the FA do.

I’m afraid you’re wasting your breath with old Mr Irish though. I’m not sure he’s listened to anyone or changed his mind on anything since before he started posting on here pre-2003 (see my rather outdated signature).

 

[CurbishleyRange]

Bullshit do we. He deliberately tried to injure one of our players. I don't see how him getting racist abuse from overseas has anything to do with us. Had it come from our actual fanbase, then that would be a different story, but it didn't.

He won't be getting any 'support' from me, whatever that means.

It has to do with us because we are human beings and if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. If football becomes that partisan then we're heading back to the 70s. Pretty sure no-one wants that

 

[Eric the meek]

Fine, but you just stated a timeline and drew conclusions from that. I don't see anywhere where he or Sheffield are trying to deflect away from the tackle by using racism. Conflate means to combine two entirely separate things to create something new. The racism wouldn't have happened without the tackle, they are intrinsically linked.

***sigh***

How do you know the racism wouldn't have happened without the tackle? Unless you have a time machine which you can wind back and replay the game without the tackle, it is difficult not to conclude that you are making things up and presenting them as fact.

Then at the very end, you claim the racism and the tackle are 'intrinsically linked', even though you wrote 'The racist abuse is an unacceptable stand alone issue.' earlier in post #30. Not for the first time on this thread, you have contradicted yourself.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Fine, but you just stated a timeline and drew conclusions from that. I don't see anywhere where he or Sheffield are trying to deflect away from the tackle by using racism. Conflate means to combine two entirely separate things to create something new. The racism wouldn't have happened without the tackle, they are intrinsically linked.

And if only Saka et al had scored those penalties then they wouldn’t have got any abuse either.

 

[drew]

And if only Saka et al had scored those penalties then they wouldn’t have got any abuse either.

Unfortunately, that could be true although if it wasn't those penalty misses then it may well have been something else that the racists would latch on to. All I'm saying in this case is that the tackle was the catalyst for the racists to use to stupidly justify their attacks.

 

[drew]

***sigh***

How do you know the racism wouldn't have happened without the tackle? Unless you have a time machine which you can wind back and replay the game without the tackle, it is difficult not to conclude that you are making things up and presenting them as fact.

Then at the very end, you claim the racism and the tackle are 'intrinsically linked', even though you wrote 'The racist abuse is an unacceptable stand alone issue.' earlier in post #30. Not for the first time on this thread, you have contradicted yourself.

I don't know but I would guess that, judging by some of the comments on his account, that many of those were from fans of Mitoma, He also said it was the last 48 hours that had become intolerable, suggesting the abuse he was getting since Sunday was out of the ordinary for him. It's not rocket science to link the two.

As for my earlier comments, fair enough, however I would argue that I was trying to make a point to those that for some reason thought the release of the racism angle was purely to deflect from the tackle.

 

[Commander]

It has to do with us because we are human beings and if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. If football becomes that partisan then we're heading back to the 70s. Pretty sure no-one wants that

Nope. Someone committing a crime in a country thousands of miles away has absolutely nothing to do with me. And I can also not be part of any ‘solution’ I’m afraid. Although I admit I am strangely fascinated to hear how you plan to be.

 

[CurbishleyRange]

Nope. Someone committing a crime in a country thousands of miles away has absolutely nothing to do with me. And I can also not be part of any ‘solution’ I’m afraid. Although I admit I am strangely fascinated to hear how you plan to be.

Send a message of support to Holgate ? Show him that some things are more important than football. Educate yourself about some of the causes of racism? Vote against a racist government in the next GE? There's plenty. If you're interested

 

[Commander]

Send a message of support to Holgate ? Show him that some things are more important than football. Educate yourself about some of the causes of racism? Vote against a racist government in the next GE? There's plenty. If you're interested

I’ll be doing your last suggestion.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Send a message of support to Holgate ? Show him that some things are more important than football. Educate yourself about some of the causes of racism? Vote against a racist government in the next GE? There's plenty. If you're interested

Nah, I'm going to vote Reform in the next election because I'm annoyed by Holgate's tackle.

 

[Surf's Up]

So where's the apology to Mitoma then?

This all sounds like a story to deflect from the key issue of his horrendous tackle and to garner sympathy. I would wager that any racist abuse has actually come from Sheffield United fans upset that he cost them the game. Had Brighton fans abused him you might imagine it would not have any racist tone but would simply be giving him stick for the tackle. Or I would very much hope so.

If he really has got racist abuse from Albion fans get our club and the police involved. You would imagine our club would be very pro active and keen to track down and take action.

This, still conspicuous by its absence.

 

[FatSuperman]

I’ll be doing your last suggestion.

Ah yes, but are you doing that to show your support for Holgate after he got racially abused?

Really hope CurbishleyRange gets picked for a polling exit interview. "Why did I vote Green you ask? Well, it all started when I was in Sheffield..."

 

[Guinness Boy]

For some reason they don't need to do it anywhere near as much for murder, sadism, genocide or paedophilia.

You clearly haven't read council estate Facebook pages.

 

[Commander]

Ah yes, but are you doing that to show your support for Holgate after he got racially abused?

Yes, and then posting it on Facebook to show the world how anti-racist I am.

 

[MJsGhost]

No, of course it isn't. But it's the one thing that people love to call out the most, to show the world how un-racist they are.

For some reason they don't need to do it anywhere near as much for murder, sadism, genocide or paedophilia.

Interesting that nobody has denied that racism is human nature though, which it absolutely is. It's a deep-rooted survival instinct in my opinion, and for the vast majority of our evolution it made evolutionary sense to fear other groups who were different to your own. It's only really the last tiny speck of time in human history that it no longer does, and some societies are still 50 years ahead of others in this development. Hence why things like this happen when something like the Premier League is shown to a global audience.

I find it quite odd why so many people still get so surprised by something like this happening in a country a long way away with a completely different culture and set of values- those people don't think like you do! In fact, they'd probably be utterly appalled at some of the things you are OK with, being a Brighton fan. Remember all the Iranians on social media when he had Jahanbakhsh? They weren't too impressed when the club started Tweeting about Pride. They are just as sure of their viewpoint and opinions as we are.

In a roundabout way, don't you answer your own point?

Murder, sadism, genocide, paedophilia etc are hardly 'live' issues. Perpetrators of those crimes are (thankfully) few and far between and you'll be hard pushed to find anyone sticking up for the right to commit them whether in public or private, here or globally.

Racism on the other hand is still very common, and as you point out even more so in some of the other countries that follow the Premier League.

It's therefore far more likely that you'll see people stating their view against racism - whether it's to make their position clear (it's not something as reliably assumed as an anti-murder stance), or in the hope of changing someone else's mind.

What is annoying is how it has created an easy deflection for Mason Holgate, who is now a victim as well as the villain (both of those things can be true).

 

[Commander]

In a roundabout way, don't you answer your own point?

Murder, sadism, genocide, paedophilia etc are hardly 'live' issues. Perpetrators of those crimes are (thankfully) few and far between and you'll be hard pushed to find anyone sticking up for the right to commit them whether in public or private, here or globally.

Racism on the other hand is still very common, and as you point out even more so in some of the other countries that follow the Premier League.

It's therefore far more likely that you'll see people stating their view against racism - whether it's to make their position clear (it's not something as reliably assumed as an anti-murder stance), or in the hope of changing someone else's mind.

What is annoying is how it has created an easy deflection for Mason Holgate, who is now a victim as well as the villain (both of those things can be true).

I kind of agree, but also don't. I guess on social media I'd assume that anybody I actually know would assume that my default stance would be to be anti-racist. I'd like to think I don't need to publicly state it. Everyone else, well I really struggle to care what they think anyway, so it doesn't matter.

 

[MJsGhost]

I kind of agree, but also don't. I guess on social media I'd assume that anybody I actually know would assume that my default stance would be to be anti-racist. I'd like to think I don't need to publicly state it. Everyone else, well I really struggle to care what they think anyway, so it doesn't matter.

This probably highlights your use of social media and your attitude towards it compared to others. You're using a public platform to interact with people that know you (and everyone else, meh), whereas others seem to think they are holding court at Speakers' Corner (there are plenty of viewpoints in between those positions too).

If I'm being generous to the virtue signallers, it could be seen as the modern equivalent of the more enlightened members of society asserting their view to encourage others to follow. Kind of an online equivalent of someone shouting down an idiot making monkey noises towards black players in the North Stand for example - let them know it's not acceptable and even if their views are unchanged, they might at least keep them quiet next time.
Obviously, it all has way less impact online and is a LOT easier for the person to call it out than in a face-to-face situation, but the gist is the same.

Unfortunately, it's too easy to jump on the bandwagon of collective outrage in the modern social media age, so it loses its authenticity and impact.

 

[Questions]

Racism in English football is not rife.

 

[London Irish]

Exactly this. Just look at how FIFA deal with racism in stadiums compared to how the FA do.

I’m afraid you’re wasting your breath with old Mr Irish though. I’m not sure he’s listened to anyone or changed his mind on anything since before he started posting on here pre-2003 (see my rather outdated signature).

Ha textbook projection, do you think you're some kind of hesitant shrinking violet on here? You stick your chin out plenty and rarely withdraw it

 

[Commander]

Ha textbook projection, do you think you're some kind of hesitant shrinking violet on here? You stick your chin out plenty and rarely withdraw it