Malaysian airline crash

[readingstockport]

Wasn't Obama trying to obtain big money to help the Ukrainian army with weapons and training ? same thing really as Putin helping the Russian speaking Ukrainians but it's ok for one side but not the other.

Do you think the seperatists were justified in shooting down a civilian airliner flying in a commercial air route using a Russian supplied weapon?

 

[dingodan]

It's funny how they see these being removed form the area yet didn't see them entering the country ? they are heavy missiles and machinery and no way would these have gone unnoticed by satellite , media and god knows what else . Also you need more than the rocket launchers to get a direct hit at that height i.e. satellite technology.

It is just unbelievable with some people on NSC and in the newspapers this morning about Putin murdering children , 'killing my sons' etc , there is not one ounce of evidence as yet , if Putin is found to be guilty then I would want the bloke hanged . The papers and some people on here only read the westernised side of the stories and are anti Russia whatever happens , may be because being gay is illegal in Russia ? each country has it's traditions and beliefs and Putin is a very popular man in Russia . If you don't know (because it is never reported on UK news or written in the papers) that the Ukraine Army are killing with rockets and air strikes against Ukrainian people and children , reporters by bullets and so on and so forth , never reported and that 100,000's of Ukrainians have left home to go to Russia to be safe , or if you like it is a form of ethnic cleansing by Ukraine .

Did you also know the Ukrainian air authorities were tracking this plane and asked the pilot to change course and fly lower ? probably not .

One thing not mentioned much is how Eastern Ukraine had been being bombed by the Ukrainian military, the reason the weapons used were being sought out in the first place.

 

[dingodan]

Do you think the seperatists were justified in shooting down a civilian airliner flying in a commercial air route using a Russian supplied weapon?

Nobody would say it was justified, even those who did it. It was an accident obviously.

 

[readingstockport]

One thing not mentioned much is how Eastern Ukraine had been being bombed by the Ukrainian military, the reason the weapons used were being sought out in the first place.

So that makes the Russian facilitated murder of 298 people on a civilian aircraft acceptable in what way?

 

[Czechmate]

Except of course there is footage apparently showing the launcher being moved into Donetskk hours before the Russian backed murders took place. http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/389683/MH17-Buk-missile-launcher

'apparently showing' not been confirmed , could be Ukrainian hardware , no photo's of it crossing the border ? surely must be , as so important and they followed it . Could be anywhere and you would need more than the rockets to get a direct hit , don't get me wrong I am not a Putin supporter , I respect Russia's beliefs and traditions just as much as the Uk's I just think we only hear the westernised side of the stories every time .

 

[readingstockport]

Nobody would say it was justified, even those who did it. It was an accident obviously.

I accept it was almost certianly a mistake but to seek to justify it in any way, as it seems to me Czechmate is seeking to do, is pathetic.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

It's funny how they see these being removed form the area yet didn't see them entering the country ? they are heavy missiles and machinery and no way would these have gone unnoticed by satellite , media and god knows what else . Also you need more than the rocket launchers to get a direct hit at that height i.e. satellite technology.

There was some suggestion that the 'rebels' had previously captured the missile system from the Ukrainian military, so might explain why it was not seen entering the country.

I would not be surprised if the very sophisticated satellites and military intelligence available to the West already identified the presence of major weapons systems on the ground in Ukraine and whether these were deployed from Russia. I don't suppose this detail would ever be fully disclosed to us public. However there was some suggestion by commentators that Obama might be allowing Putin a few days to take a more conciliatory position and if he fails then Obama will expose sufficient evidence to make Putin's position very difficult. It cannot change what happened to MH17 but with the Ukraine problem likely to fester this incident creates a whole new dynamic going forward for Putin and his relationship with the rest of the world. Obama will want to put Putin as firmly on the back foot as possible. All conjecture of course, but it came from some very seasoned commentators looking at the bigger picture.

 

[readingstockport]

'apparently showing' not been confirmed , could be Ukrainian hardware , no photo's of it crossing the border ? surely must be , as so important and they followed it . Could be anywhere and you would need more than the rockets to get a direct hit , don't get me wrong I am not a Putin supporter , I respect Russia's beliefs and traditions just as much as the Uk's I just think we only hear the westernised side of the stories every time .

Weasel words, you are wriggling on a hook trying to deny the fairly evident evidence of who shot this plane down. Responsibility rests solely with the man at the top who supported the 'seperatists' and then went on to arm them.

 

[dingodan]

So that makes the Russian facilitated murder of 298 people on a civilian aircraft acceptable in what way?

It doesn't make it acceptable in any way.

It's just part of the story of what happened.

 

[Czechmate]

Do you think the seperatists were justified in shooting down a civilian airliner flying in a commercial air route using a Russian supplied weapon?

no way I don't as much as if it was the Ukrainian army but until we have factual evidence , we shouldn't lay the blame .If it was found to be them then let them hang , but I still can't believe Putin would be so stupid to get involved in it , he is a business man and he knows the future is dealing with businesses worldwide .

 

[Czechmate]

I accept it was almost certianly a mistake but to seek to justify it in any way, as it seems to me Czechmate is seeking to do, is pathetic.

I am not justifying it , it is very very sad what has happened and those found guilty should be hanged , but to call Putin a murderer is appalling at this stage.

 

[Triggaaar]

What we do know is that Putin says that regardless of who shot it down, it's Ukraine's fault, as it was over their territory. That's a ****ed up view in my opinion.

 

[readingstockport]

no way I don't as much as if it was the Ukrainian army but until we have factual evidence , we shouldn't lay the blame .If it was found to be them then let them hang , but I still can't believe Putin would be so stupid to get involved in it , he is a business man and he knows the future is dealing with businesses worldwide .

That's the problem with playing with rabid wolves as Putin has been doing in the Ukraine.

You think you are controlling them but they are still rabid wolves and will do the unpredictable. Putin has been playing with fire for a long time now, it is not surprising that he is finally going to get burnt with this one.

 

[readingstockport]

I am not justifying it , it is very very sad what has happened and those found guilty should be hanged , but to call Putin a murderer is appalling at this stage.

He deserves to be called a murderer over Anna Stepanovna Politkovskaya if for nothing else.

 

[dingodan]

That's the problem with playing with rabid wolves as The West has been doing in the Middle East.

You think you are controlling them but they are still rabid wolves and will do the unpredictable. The West has been playing with fire for a long time now...

Just saying.

 

[Czechmate]

It's funny how they see these being removed form the area yet didn't see them entering the country ? they are heavy missiles and machinery and no way would these have gone unnoticed by satellite , media and god knows what else . Also you need more than the rocket launchers to get a direct hit at that height i.e. satellite technology.

There was some suggestion that the 'rebels' had previously captured the missile system from the Ukrainian military, so might explain why it was not seen entering the country.

I would not be surprised if the very sophisticated satellites and military intelligence available to the West already identified the presence of major weapons systems on the ground in Ukraine and whether these were deployed from Russia. I don't suppose this detail would ever be fully disclosed to us public. However there was some suggestion by commentators that Obama might be allowing Putin a few days to take a more conciliatory position and if he fails then Obama will expose sufficient evidence to make Putin's position very difficult. It cannot change what happened to MH17 but with the Ukraine problem likely to fester this incident creates a whole new dynamic going forward for Putin and his relationship with the rest of the world. Obama will want to put Putin as firmly on the back foot as possible. All conjecture of course, but it came from some very seasoned commentators looking at the bigger picture.

Very sensible poster , not taking much notice of papers or the news and concludes your own theory with your knowledge you have learnt without making someone guilty without any facts .

Well I f--ked that up I meant Seagullovercanaryland

 

[readingstockport]

Just saying.

I know you are and for once I actually think you are being fairly reasonable - for you anyway.

 

[Creaky]

Do you think the seperatists were justified in shooting down a civilian airliner flying in a commercial air route using a Russian supplied weapon?

Do you think the separists knowingly shot down a civilian airliner flying over a conflict zone?

All the evidence points to their belief that it was a cargo plane.

Tragic? - yes
Deliberate murder - no

Nothing whatsoever will be gained by military action of any kind by way of reprisal.

 

[Czechmate]

Weasel words, you are wriggling on a hook trying to deny the fairly evident evidence of who shot this plane down. Responsibility rests solely with the man at the top who supported the 'seperatists' and then went on to arm them.

So it's ok to arm and train the Ukrainian army to kill hundreds of Ukrainian civilians in East Ukraine by the US or that's what they were planning .

 

[readingstockport]

Do you think the separists knowingly shot down a civilian airliner flying over a conflict zone?

All the evidence points to their belief that it was a cargo plane.

Tragic? - yes
Deliberate murder - no

Nothing whatsoever will be gained by military action of any kind by way of reprisal.

If you recklessly and negliently fire a loaded gun into a crowded room you are guilty of murder if you hit and kill someone. If the missile was fired deliberately but a mistake was made in hitting a civilian airliner then I would suggest that act is both reckless and negligent.

I suggest you check on both domestic and international law before you try this line.

Edit to add - Where have I suggested any kind of military action?