[News] Major incident in Newhaven

[cunning fergus]

Apologies for the long post but given the response to my first post, I feel the need to elaborate my position somewhat. I agree with your post wholeheartedly - it isn’t ’unreasonable’ and this is the starting point for me - recognising that we can not ignore those concerns or dismiss them purely as xenophobic or racist - I live in quite a socially deprived area, where there is little in the way of rented accommodation, long waiting lists for non-urgent primary care and secondary services - it is no coincidence that anti-immigrant sentiments are high amongst the community here. It would be utterly impossible for me to have any meaningful dialogue if my starting point was to accuse everybody who complains to me about the doctors surgery being ‘full of immigrants’ or they can’t get a dentist ‘because of immigrants’, of being racist or xenophobic even if it were obvious that is where some people are at.

That’s where evidence based discussion can maybe help to de escalate emotions (I think both @Thunder Bolt and @WATFORD zero and others have made an excellent contribution to NSC discussions in helping to moderate the rhetoric with fact-based and informative posts).

For my part, having worked in the healthcare industry for many years and now reliant on a high maintenance level of care, I would say that immigration props up our Health Service more than harms it
https://www.nhsconfed.org/articles/immigration-harming-nhs :

The same for agriculture - the area I live in is also an agricultural area and farmers here are dependent on migrant labour to put our food on the table.

The pressure on housing is more complex - it is a common trope that if it were not for immigration we would not have a shortage of housing; the longterm trends in single occupancy; increase in house ownership/second homes; tougher environmental/development laws over the past 75 years; natural population growth in the non-immigrant population due to increased lifespans and better infant survival are also contributory to the shortage of housing as is a lack of investment in social housing stock. It is also the case that new immigrants, unless they are well off, live in denser households and therefore take up more space. That said, high levels of immigration do impact the availability of housing but not in terms of queue jumping or necessarily in the public sector - 80% of new immigrants live in private sector housing and there is no evidence to support the assertion that migrants get priority on social housing lists (in fact having a local connection is a criteria most new migrants don’t meet). After decades, the level of home ownership among migrants is similar to the indigenous population:

An old article but addresses some of the misconceptions

Is immigration causing the UK housing crisis?

Migrants aren’t jumping queues for social housing, and in some places immigration actually lowers housing demand

www.theguardian.com

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/POST-PN-0560/POST-PN-0560.pdf

As for those arriving in the back of lorries or on boats - We have a shared obligation under International law to take in Asylum seekers and process their claim for refugee status. More importantly for debate, asylum seekers and refugees are not considered as ‘migrants’ and form a very small minority of the total number of foreign arrivals applying for permanent residency in the UK.

What is an asylum seeker? | Myth Busting | British Red Cross

Busting myths about asylum seekers and refugees: six things you need to know about those who flee violence and persecution.

www.redcross.org.uk

A really interesting document on how migration is measured and who is defined as ‘migrant’

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06077/SN06077.pdf

I have no doubts it’s a complex issue which people feel passionately about, but certain aspects require clarity. Immigration has winners and losers, the losers will ALWAYS be the working class. It’s a UNDENIABLE fact, it was a fact when Empire Windrush docked in Tilbury in the 50s and it held true when Labour estimated only 15,000 Poles would arrive when that country joined the EU in the noughties. We are now running at. around 700k legal and illegal immigrants a year, and still people want to pretend this situation has no affect on the working class.

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/97...-labour-got-the-numbers-wrong-on-eu-migrants/

It’s the same principle that applied by being in the EU, it f***ed over the working class. It’s why the middling classes and establishment shills can’t accept Brexit, and hence the working class are held in utter contempt. Thats also why the establishment has changed nothing since Brexit. The British working class continue to pay taxes to an organisation that hands their money over to foreigners. Plus ca change as they say.

Ford's £80m EU loan to boost Turkey factory - and close ours

THE Daily Echo can reveal today that a huge payout of EU cash was made to Ford just before the company closed its Southampton plant – and it went…

www.dailyecho.co.uk

 

[Guinness Boy]

I have no doubts it’s a complex issue which people feel passionately about, but certain aspects require clarity. Immigration has winners and losers, the losers will ALWAYS be the working class. It’s a UNDENIABLE fact, it was a fact when Empire Windrush docked in Tilbury in the 50s and it held true when Labour estimated only 15,000 Poles would arrive when that country joined the EU in the noughties. We are now running at. around 700k legal and illegal immigrants a year, and still people want to pretend this situation has no affect on the working class.

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/97...-labour-got-the-numbers-wrong-on-eu-migrants/

It’s the same principle that applied by being in the EU, it f***ed over the working class. It’s why the middling classes and establishment shills can’t accept Brexit, and hence the working class are held in utter contempt. Thats also why the establishment has changed nothing since Brexit. The British working class continue to pay taxes to an organisation that hands their money over to foreigners. Plus ca change as they say.

Ford's £80m EU loan to boost Turkey factory - and close ours

THE Daily Echo can reveal today that a huge payout of EU cash was made to Ford just before the company closed its Southampton plant – and it went…

www.dailyecho.co.uk

Working class people would be worst affected if there was no immigration too. It certainly wouldn’t be the educated middle class delivering pizza, picking fruit or working in kitchens. I assume you do want to eat? And, with an aging population we’d have to reduce the state pension.

You ARE counting pensioners relying on state pension as working class, right? Even the brown ones?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Most NHS staff in England are British, but around 19% are not. Around 265,000 out of 1.5 million staff reported a non-British nationality in June 2023, up from 220,000 a year earlier This amounts to nearly one in five of NHS staff with a known nationality. 20 Nov 2023

 

[Seagull58]

It seems that the anger from the absolute failure of Vote Leave 'Taking Back Control' and the Rwanda plan is causing the racists, xenophobes and Islamophobic to publish their actual views on this thread. Who would have guessed



You have already shot yourself in both feet, where are you aiming for next

Ah, here we go again. Anyone who posts a comment not 100% in line with your opinion is characterised as a racist, a xenophobe and an islamaphobe. I didn't vote leave. I don't agree that Muslim asylum seekers should be granted asylum because they have supposedly converted to Christianity. It's a scam.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Ah, here we go again. Anyone who posts a comment not 100% in line with your opinion is characterised as a racist, a xenophobe and an islamaphobe. I didn't vote leave. I don't agree that Muslim asylum seekers should be granted asylum because they have supposedly converted to Christianity. It's a scam.

Religion has no bearing on Asylum applications whatsoever and being Christian is certainly not a prerequisite for being granted asylum. I can't imagine why you would bring converting religion up on a thread about an incident in Newhaven

It seems that the anger from the absolute failure of Vote Leave 'Taking Back Control' and the Rwanda plan is causing the racists, xenophobes and Islamophobic to publish their actual views on this thread. Who would have guessed

Or maybe I can

 

[Seagull58]

Exactly.

White people in England: why won’t these people just INTEGRATE?

Also white peopke in England: why are they converting to our religion?

It’s almost like there’s something else they object to.

Do you honestly believe Abdul Ezedi !nd the 40 "converts" on the Bibby Stockholm are guenuine converts to Christianity? Ezedi had 2 asylum application refused, was convicted of a sex crime, then "converted" to Christianity and had his third application approved. Yet his friends in Newcastle confirmed he was still apractising Muslim after his "conversion". They are gaming the system.

 

[Seagull58]

Religion has no bearing on Asylum applications whatsoever and is certainly not a prerequisite for being granted asylum. I can't imagine why you would bring converting religion up on a thread about an incident in Newhaven

Or maybe I can

You can say that but the evidence is clear that a number of asylum seekers are converting to Christianity because they believe it will help them get granted asylum, as evidenced by Abdul Ezedi who was granted asylum on his third attempt after converting.

 

[Seagull58]

Religion has no bearing on Asylum applications whatsoever and is certainly not a prerequisite for being granted asylum. I can't imagine why you would bring converting religion up on a thread about an incident in Newhaven


Or maybe I can

Ah, once again you bring out the sly dig. "or maybe I can", implying that anyone expressing a viewpoint divergent from yours must be racist, xenophobic and islamaphobic.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Religion has no bearing on Asylum applications whatsoever and being Christian is certainly not a prerequisite for being granted asylum. I can't imagine why you would bring converting religion up on a thread about an incident in Newhaven


Or maybe I can

It’s obviously not a prerequisite for asylum. The point I think is that there have been some well publicised cases where a conversion to Christianity has been cited as grounds for asylum ie that if they’re returned to their home country they will be persecuted or even killed. The Afghani guy who attacked the mother and children with a corrosive substance is the most recent high-profile one.

 

[Seagull58]

They ALL do that do they? Like all white teenagers in shitty northern towns slice up trans people in broad daylight?

Of course there are false conversions. It’s even been on the liberal left wing BBC.

The point is that when you create a set of rules where “they” cannot win, you have to assume it’s the people you object to and not the situation.

At least you’re not posting it from an ivory tower in Portugal though.

Why do you say "they" cannot win? If you are referring to asylum seekers then it has been stated many times that 80% of them are granted asylum. I would suggest that some asylum seekers e.g. 40 on the Libby Stockholm, believe that their claims will be looked on more favourably if they "convert to Christianity".
The Internet and global news services enable me to access UK news, and information. I'm not in an ivory tower in a far-flung corner of the world. Why have you resorted to denigrating my living arrangements?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Working class people would be worst affected if there was no immigration too. It certainly wouldn’t be the educated middle class delivering pizza, picking fruit or working in kitchens. I assume you do want to eat? And, with an aging population we’d have to reduce the state pension.

You ARE counting pensioners relying on state pension as working class, right? Even the brown ones?

No one in their right mind would want no immigration. It’s obviously vital for the NHS, the software industry etc. That's a separate topic from the Newhaven incident and illegal immigration.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

FFS

REVEALED: Winners of awards celebrating Blackburn with Darwen's community heroes

Dozens of volunteers from Blackburn with Darwen's communities were thanked for their contributions at a special awards ceremony.

www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk

It is a thing, to be fair.

*edit* FFS again, @Sid and the Sharknados already did it. I'll take my bullshit elsewhere.

Respect for owning that

 

[aolstudios]

I have no doubts it’s a complex issue which people feel passionately about, but certain aspects require clarity. Immigration has winners and losers, the losers will ALWAYS be the working class. It’s a UNDENIABLE fact, it was a fact when Empire Windrush docked in Tilbury in the 50s and it held true when Labour estimated only 15,000 Poles would arrive when that country joined the EU in the noughties. We are now running at. around 700k legal and illegal immigrants a year, and still people want to pretend this situation has no affect on the working class.

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/97...-labour-got-the-numbers-wrong-on-eu-migrants/

It’s the same principle that applied by being in the EU, it f***ed over the working class. It’s why the middling classes and establishment shills can’t accept Brexit, and hence the working class are held in utter contempt. Thats also why the establishment has changed nothing since Brexit. The British working class continue to pay taxes to an organisation that hands their money over to foreigners. Plus ca change as they say.

Ford's £80m EU loan to boost Turkey factory - and close ours

THE Daily Echo can reveal today that a huge payout of EU cash was made to Ford just before the company closed its Southampton plant – and it went…

www.dailyecho.co.uk

Comical little racist.
I'm thoroughly working class by the way. I can't think of any of my mates growing up who fall for that Enoch/Moseley horseshit

 

[Guinness Boy]

No one in their right mind would want no immigration. It’s obviously vital for the NHS, the software industry etc. That's a separate topic from the Newhaven incident and illegal immigration.

But I was replying to @cunning fergus who didn’t make that distinction and just lumped them all in as “immigrants”.

 

[Seagull58]

Apologies for the long post but given the response to my first post, I feel the need to elaborate my position somewhat. I agree with your post wholeheartedly - it isn’t ’unreasonable’ and this is the starting point for me - recognising that we can not ignore those concerns or dismiss them purely as xenophobic or racist - I live in quite a socially deprived area, where there is little in the way of rented accommodation, long waiting lists for non-urgent primary care and secondary services - it is no coincidence that anti-immigrant sentiments are high amongst the community here. It would be utterly impossible for me to have any meaningful dialogue if my starting point was to accuse everybody who complains to me about the doctors surgery being ‘full of immigrants’ or they can’t get a dentist ‘because of immigrants’, of being racist or xenophobic even if it were obvious that is where some people are at.

That’s where evidence based discussion can maybe help to de escalate emotions (I think both @Thunder Bolt and @WATFORD zero and others have made an excellent contribution to NSC discussions in helping to moderate the rhetoric with fact-based and informative posts).

For my part, having worked in the healthcare industry for many years and now reliant on a high maintenance level of care, I would say that immigration props up our Health Service more than harms it
https://www.nhsconfed.org/articles/immigration-harming-nhs :

The same for agriculture - the area I live in is also an agricultural area and farmers here are dependent on migrant labour to put our food on the table.

The pressure on housing is more complex - it is a common trope that if it were not for immigration we would not have a shortage of housing; the longterm trends in single occupancy; increase in house ownership/second homes; tougher environmental/development laws over the past 75 years; natural population growth in the non-immigrant population due to increased lifespans and better infant survival are also contributory to the shortage of housing as is a lack of investment in social housing stock. It is also the case that new immigrants, unless they are well off, live in denser households and therefore take up less space. That said, high levels of immigration do impact the availability of housing but not in terms of queue jumping or necessarily in the public sector - 80% of new immigrants live in private sector housing and there is no evidence to support the assertion that migrants get priority on social housing lists (in fact having a local connection is a criteria most new migrants don’t meet). After decades, the level of home ownership among migrants is similar to the indigenous population:

An old article but addresses some of the misconceptions

Is immigration causing the UK housing crisis?

Migrants aren’t jumping queues for social housing, and in some places immigration actually lowers housing demand

www.theguardian.com

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/POST-PN-0560/POST-PN-0560.pdf

As for those arriving in the back of lorries or on boats - We have a shared obligation under International law to take in Asylum seekers and process their claim for refugee status. More importantly for debate, asylum seekers and refugees are not considered as ‘migrants’ and form a very small minority of the total number of foreign arrivals applying for permanent residency in the UK.

What is an asylum seeker? | Myth Busting | British Red Cross

Busting myths about asylum seekers and refugees: six things you need to know about those who flee violence and persecution.

www.redcross.org.uk

A really interesting document on how migration is measured and who is defined as ‘migrant’

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06077/SN06077.pdf

The same @WATFORD zero who accused me of being g racist, xenophobic and islamaphobic because I posted information about asylum seekers going through a process of conversion to Christianity in large numbers and, consequently, receiving help from the Church in their asylum applications?

Forty Bibby Stockholm asylum seekers converting to Christianity

Laws around role of church in asylum claims may be tightened in wake of Clapham attack

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Guinness Boy]

Why do you say "they" cannot win? If you are referring to asylum seekers then it has been stated many times that 80% of them are granted asylum. I would suggest that some asylum seekers e.g. 40 on the Libby Stockholm, believe that their claims will be looked on more favourably if they "convert to Christianity".
The Internet and global news services enable me to access UK news, and information. I'm not in an ivory tower in a far-flung corner of the world. Why have you resorted to denigrating my living arrangements?

You’ve not lived in the UK since 2021 according to this thread and I believe were in South Africa before that. All you know about this country’s recent experience are the things you’ve curated to read yourself.

If you can’t understand the hypocrisy involved in wanting people to integrate and then crying foul when it’s used against the system there’s no hope for you.

 

[Seagull58]

But I was replying to @cunning fergus who didn’t make that distinction and just lumped them all in as “immigrants”.

You were replying to Cunning Fergus but still managed to get a dig in about where I live.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Quoting the Telegraph owned by the tax avoiding Barclay twins isn’t quite the gotcha you think it is. They even fell out with each other before David’s death three years ago.

 

[Seagull58]

You’ve not lived in the UK since 2021 according to this thread and I believe were in South Africa before that. All you know about this country’s recent experience are the things you’ve curated to read yourself.

If you can’t understand the hypocrisy involved in wanting people to integrate and then crying foul when it’s used against the system there’s no hope for you.

If you believe that Abdul Ezedi and the 40 asylum seekers on the Libby Stockholm have genuinely all had a religious epiphany and converted to Christianity there is no hope for you.

 

[Stat Brother]

At least we can spend next weekend moaning about waiting 20 mins for a bus or train.
Instead of being triggered by a group of people prepared to sit in a freezer for hours, just to get into Newhaven...



... f**king Newhaven.