[Football] Liverpool v Everton 're Holgate

[LamieRobertson]

Van Dijk just paid his fee back.

Blimey 70 million to win a 3rd round tie....maybe the FA Cup still has appeal after all

 

[LamieRobertson]

No, definitely not. He's prevented Lallana from running onto it, it's a clear and obvious foul. Great decision by the referee to play the advantage, and then to give the penalty when nothing came of it. Contact is fine, and if Lallana were holding it up, there's no foul. But he's spun Holgate and gone in behind, he's playing the ball if Holgate isn't holding him away from it. It's naive defending, Keown called it in commentary and there's an opinion to listen to when it comes to defending.

I thought the referee got that spot on, and then his handling of the flashpoint with Firmino and Holgate was spot on as well, strong refereeing and kept a lid on it without overreacting.

Keown also said Holgate should have been carded for that push on the Liverpool player

 

[Nobby]

Firmino could be in big trouble


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[seagulls4ever]

No, definitely not. He's prevented Lallana from running onto it, it's a clear and obvious foul. Great decision by the referee to play the advantage, and then to give the penalty when nothing came of it. Contact is fine, and if Lallana were holding it up, there's no foul. But he's spun Holgate and gone in behind, he's playing the ball if Holgate isn't holding him away from it. It's naive defending, Keown called it in commentary and there's an opinion to listen to when it comes to defending.

I thought the referee got that spot on, and then his handling of the flashpoint with Firmino and Holgate was spot on as well, strong refereeing and kept a lid on it without overreacting.

You're wrong - it was so obviously not a penalty that even Klopp himself admitted it wasn't a penalty. Watch it again - he hasn't prevented Lallana from doing anything. Lallana goes to the ground in a hopeful attempt to get a penalty and is rewarded.

And you don't think a forceful, intentional push from Holgate which makes Firmino go into the crowd warrants a card? I know you have some controversial opinions, but surely you must be fishing here.

 

[skipper734]

Blimey 70 million to win a 3rd round tie....maybe the FA Cup still has appeal after all

At least they will know where the FA Cup money went.

 

[Weststander]

No, definitely not. He's prevented Lallana from running onto it, it's a clear and obvious foul. Great decision by the referee to play the advantage, and then to give the penalty when nothing came of it. Contact is fine, and if Lallana were holding it up, there's no foul. But he's spun Holgate and gone in behind, he's playing the ball if Holgate isn't holding him away from it. It's naive defending, Keown called it in commentary and there's an opinion to listen to when it comes to defending.

I thought the referee got that spot on, and then his handling of the flashpoint with Firmino and Holgate was spot on as well, strong refereeing and kept a lid on it without overreacting.

You're right. Anywhere else on the pitch, that's a clear foul, impeding Lallana's progress.

Klopp could afford to be generous after the win.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

You're wrong - it was so obviously not a penalty that even Klopp himself admitted it wasn't a penalty. Watch it again - he hasn't prevented Lallana from doing anything. Lallana goes to the ground in a hopeful attempt to get a penalty and is rewarded.

And you don't think a forceful, intentional push from Holgate which makes Firmino go into the crowd warrants a card? I know you have some controversial opinions, but surely you must be fishing here.

Nothing controversial about it at all, especially if you consider the joke penalty Everton got against us, and then against Liverpool. The penalties being handed out at the moment are largely ridiculous, the one tonight was clear. I'm surprised there's a debate about it.

I didn't say I didn't think it was a booking, I said he handled the situation well. It's clearly a booking for me, totally unnecessary. But not giving the yellow doesn't mean he didn't handle it well.

 

[seagulls4ever]

Nothing controversial about it at all, especially if you consider the joke penalty Everton got against us, and then against Liverpool. The penalties being handed out at the moment are largely ridiculous, the one tonight was clear. I'm surprised there's a debate about it.

I didn't say I didn't think it was a booking, I said he handled the situation well. It's clearly a booking for me, totally unnecessary. But not giving the yellow doesn't mean he didn't handle it well.

There clearly is something controversial about it, or else we wouldn't be having this debate, nor would it be being blown up in the media. You think it was a penalty - fine. The one Everton got against Liverpool I don't think was a penalty (although it was more of a penalty than tonight's one) - but the one Bruno conceded when he assaulted the Everton player with his elbow was no joke at all.

I would have thought handling of a situation includes deciding whether or not to dish out cards - and you said he got it "spot on" (i.e. 100% correct). He did seem to calm things down quite well, but I don't think you can say he handling of the situation was spot on when he didn't issue a card.

 

[Wilko]

Firmino could be in big trouble


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Amazing that in the world today the player who uses words will be in more trouble than the player that pushed him dangerously into a crowd of fans.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Should have been sent off. I don’t see how it’s anything other than serious foul play if he’s pushing someone into the boards like that.

Not to mention it’s proper cowardly, giving someone a push from behind.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I'm no lip reader but it looked like he got called a 'puta'

That’s exactly what I thought...

 

[scamander]

No, definitely not. He's prevented Lallana from running onto it, it's a clear and obvious foul. Great decision by the referee to play the advantage, and then to give the penalty when nothing came of it. Contact is fine, and if Lallana were holding it up, there's no foul. But he's spun Holgate and gone in behind, he's playing the ball if Holgate isn't holding him away from it. It's naive defending, Keown called it in commentary and there's an opinion to listen to when it comes to defending.

I thought the referee got that spot on, and then his handling of the flashpoint with Firmino and Holgate was spot on as well, strong refereeing and kept a lid on it without overreacting.

Agree people focus on Llalana's reaction which is a red herring, it's not because the immense power of what was a very small amount of contact, it was to flag that there had been some at all. Holgate was impeding him by stopping him getting any momentum on a run into the box. It's not hard to stop someone when they are just getting going, hence it wasn't exactly a bodyslam. Just enough to slow him down a bit or stop him. If Holgate doesn't hug the player nothing is given.

Corners are harder to judge as a lot of this occurs before the ball is kicked so a foul can't be awarded. Most defences try and stop the players lining up their runs etc, then when the ball is kicked let go. Of course you do also see a bit of this after the ball has been kicked but the ref can't see everything. Wheareas with the penalty he onyl has a few players active to scan.

 

[scamander]

on a side note - any refs on this board? As a kid I was told never to put my hands or touch a ref as they can card you for it. We're got players holding the ref's arm. Is this an offence?

 

[Durlston]

Van Dijk just paid his fee back.

Didn't make me £75m but still a few quid. Usually Liverpool are a bogey team for me.

That's Everton's season completely over now.

 

[Weststander]

Holgate claiming racism, when he would not have had a clue about Portugese.

“CE TA LOUCO? CE TA LOUCO? FILHO DA PUTA,”

which translates as: “Are you crazy? Are you crazy? Son of a bitch!”

Why did he claim it? To try to get a player into a lot of trouble?

 

[Acker79]

Back in 2012, they said they were going to start recording conversations between refs and players. Is that still going on? Could that provide some evidence?

I wonder how much the accusation affected the ref's decision? Holgate clearly grabs the ref and is upset by something, and he tells the ref. I think the ref found himself in a tough spot, the player absolutely should have been sent off, but had also made a claim of racist abuse. Can you imagine the stories "I told the ref about racist abuse and he sent me off!" If it's not recorded and the ref didn't hear or understand any racist abuse, he knows a player has reported it, can't back it up, and will be fairly sure that all the everton players will say they heard it, or they trust holgate; all the liverpool players will say they didn't hear anything or that Firmino isn't that type of player, so maybe nothing will come of it due to insufficient evidence, and the ref is made the villain in certain circles, and his reputation affected impacting his career.

Or perhaps the ref was just trying to to keep lid on everything, accepted the push wasn't particularly violent in and of itself (though the location made it worse), and the grab by Holgate wasn't out of dissent or malicious intent, and "tried to keep 22 men on the pitch". (No, I don't think that's his job, and I would agree Holgate should have got at least a yellow card, but I think the ref was in a tough position, 'damned if you don't damned if you do' sort of thing).

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Back in 2012, they said they were going to start recording conversations between refs and players. Is that still going on? Could that provide some evidence?

I wonder how much the accusation affected the ref's decision? Holgate clearly grabs the ref and is upset by something, and he tells the ref. I think the ref found himself in a tough spot, the player absolutely should have been sent off, but had also made a claim of racist abuse. Can you imagine the stories "I told the ref about racist abuse and he sent me off!" If it's not recorded and the ref didn't hear or understand any racist abuse, he knows a player has reported it, can't back it up, and will be fairly sure that all the everton players will say they heard it, or they trust holgate; all the liverpool players will say they didn't hear anything or that Firmino isn't that type of player, so maybe nothing will come of it due to insufficient evidence, and the ref is made the villain in certain circles, and his reputation affected impacting his career.

Or perhaps the ref was just trying to to keep lid on everything, accepted the push wasn't particularly violent in and of itself (though the location made it worse), and the grab by Holgate wasn't out of dissent or malicious intent, and "tried to keep 22 men on the pitch". (No, I don't think that's his job, and I would agree Holgate should have got at least a yellow card, but I think the ref was in a tough position, 'damned if you don't damned if you do' sort of thing).

I agree with regarding the ref position in this however from the coverage at the time it didn't appear there was any previous conversation between the two. Holgate then pushed him in to a dangerous situation which neither he or the ref could determine the outcome. He could easily of gone flying in to a kid or elderly spectator causing a serious injury. That alone warrantied a red card. What happened after doesn't change that fact. If he was then racially abused, then yes that's bad but provoked in the heat of the moment things can be said we all know that. They maybe racist and should be dealt with. They don't though cause what could have been a serious injury.

As the situation evolved the first person to get between the two was the ref so anything said would have been heard by him and the other officials via the mic.

Holgate needs to be careful, especially given the reports about his twitter, he was the perpetrator of a dangerous push and then attempted to become a victim of the situation very quickly. I've witnessed things like this before and while I find racism abhorrent it can't be used to by people to excuse their behaviour.