Legal challenge to FFP in the offing? Guardian piece inc. Mr Barber

[ManxSeagull]

This was always going to happen, after all if an owner wants to lose 50m getting his team to the prem, I think that sort of owner will always challenge FFP because who are the league to say what he/she does with his money?
There is a way around this, if owners pay the players directly instead of the club. The whole FFP thing is ment well but poorly implemented.

I am surprised this hasn't happened already. I have a way around any FFP or salary cap is for the payer to be an ambassador for the owners company and gets paid directly

 

[sten_super]

Reading Charles Sales column he says one of the points causing concern is the way the fines were changed from being distributed to the clubs to being given to charity, not sure if this change was voted on but if it wasn't then that would be grounds for the legal challenge

Not being rude to you, but that first excuse is bollocks, isn't it? If the concern was really about the redistribution it would be clubs like us, Burnley, etc. that would be complaining. I would have thought that the clubs facing penalties would much rather they went to charity than to making other Championship clubs stronger. If that is the basis for their complaint (which would be really ironic, given that seemingly that change was pushed on the football league by the premier league) then it's pathetic.

 

[Creaky]

It is no good everyone banging on about point deduction here there and everywhere. What we need to hear from the FL is that they have looked into various deals and whether or not those deals are valid under FFP eg the Forest sponsorship deal. I doubt this has happened as in the recent meeting they voted on introducing mid season checks which suggest they are not currently doing it.

I also would like to hear more positive news that Uefa are backing the FL FFP rules as that would put pressure on the Premier league to ensure that they comply with the fines. After all, Uefa have their own FFP so you would think they would want to see sanctions successfully imposed rather than legally challenged!

UEFA are more than likely to have their own problems with legal challenges.

With possible fines under FFP regulations likely to be in the tens of millions the cost of legal challenges that could take years to resolve fade into insignificance.

 

[drew]

UEFA are more than likely to have their own problems with legal challenges.

With possible fines under FFP regulations likely to be in the tens of millions the cost of legal challenges that could take years to resolve fade into insignificance.

Very possibly but each governing body should support FFP for each other. If it is to succeed and develop to produce sustainable clubs then there can't afford to be a fragmented approach. Clubs should know that no matter where they are in the pyramid of football they have to adhere to the agreed rules.

 

[EDS]

The difference is that our debt is interest free, to our Chairman, who has committed to not calling that debt in. Your debt was to, inter alia, local small businesses trading on an arms-length basis who went bust and put people out of work when you refused/couldn't pay.

So the only difference is your owner has more money than ours had. So who are Brighton 100 million in debt to?
Heaven forbid a BHA fan would complain about other clubs being in debt when they themselves are, it seems like you want it all ways.

 

[Goldstone1976]

So the only difference is your owner has more money than ours had. So who are Brighton 100 million in debt to?
Heaven forbid a BHA fan would complain about other clubs being in debt when they themselves are, it seems like you want it all ways.

Nope, the only difference is NOT that our owner has more more money than yours had. There's also the fairly major difference that ours has both committed to fund the club and, critically, has ensured that we have not put several small, local companies out of business, by buying services/products which he either could not fund, or chose not to; which is immoral and illegal.

I said in my reply to your trolling post who BHA are in debt to, but am happy to repeat it here in case you didn't read it: Tony Bloom, our Chairman. No bank debt and no debt to small, local businesses beyond normal credit terms.

I'm not complaining about other clubs being in debt. I think you'll find this thread is the first time I've ever commented on the topic wrt other clubs. What am I am complaining about is other clubs, nay, any other business whose owners/management are so immoral or incompetent or criminal that they knowingly procure services/products which they then do not pay for.

For the record, your current owner is materially better than your previous ones in terms of financial integrity. As is ours wrt some previous owners of our club. However, it remains a fact that BHA have never been in administration, whereas your lot have been. Twice.

 

[eaglejez]

It's individuals bankrolling clubs with no regard for sound business principles that has so ****ed up the finances of football and is distorting fair competition. Even the USA make a stab at trying to stop competitive domination thru salary caps and draft systems. This is a pretty major moment for football in this country - if there are legal challenges to pre-agreed rules then it's no different to West Ham trying to overturn Carroll's red card in the courts.

all clubs are to some extent living outside their means. The Brighton business model is certainly not market consistent and available to all. They have been gifted over 100m in interest free loans. If another club wanted to have a new stadium and got the same crowds/income as Brighton they would have to add on another 10m+ to the losses (if not more). Not that they would get the finance anyway unless someone could whack in at least 50%

The FPP while in theory a reasonable idea can never work especially separate to the Prem and other countries doing silly.

Football is screwed financially and running a football club involves delaying ruin as long as possible

 

[eaglejez]

Big difference though. Ours are manageable. Theirs were not.

come on !! I'm trying to stay away from this thread but you are ignoring over 120m of debt you've been gifted. The full income from the stadium is included in your accounts but a massive slice of the costs is ignored. Great for Brighton and Palace are also benefitting from wealthy owners but please don't think Brighton are any better than everyone else

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

come on !! I'm trying to stay away from this thread but you are ignoring over 120m of debt you've been gifted. The full income from the stadium is included in your accounts but a massive slice of the costs is ignored. Great for Brighton and Palace are also benefitting from wealthy owners but please don't think Brighton are any better than everyone else

The reason the stadium costs don't appear in the BHA accounts is not because they're ignored, it's because the football club doesn't own it.

 

[Goldstone1976]

come on !! I'm trying to stay away from this thread but you are ignoring over 120m of debt you've been gifted. The full income from the stadium is included in your accounts but a massive slice of the costs is ignored.This is perfectly true Great for Brighton and Palace are also benefitting from wealthy ownersAlso true but please don't think Brighton are any better than everyone elsePersonally, I don't think we're better (financially) than everyone else, but I do think we're better (financially) than any club that has gone into administration

...

 

[Hotchilidog]

all clubs are to some extent living outside their means. The Brighton business model is certainly not market consistent and available to all. They have been gifted over 100m in interest free loans. If another club wanted to have a new stadium and got the same crowds/income as Brighton they would have to add on another 10m+ to the losses (if not more). Not that they would get the finance anyway unless someone could whack in at least 50%

The FPP while in theory a reasonable idea can never work especially separate to the Prem and other countries doing silly.

Football is screwed financially and running a football club involves delaying ruin as long as possible

We are indeed fortunate to basically have the Amex handed to us on a plate by Bloom. It also has to be remembered though, that during the 13 year struggle to get permission of fit to be built, we still paid our way, with the directors taking the hit. It also meant that the managers at Withdean had to take a hit as they were not able to spend as they liked and had to sell when it was necessary to do so. This is different to the model pursued by other clubs who just spent anyway, and then took administration as a way of getting out of paying creditors.

 

[eaglejez]

We are indeed fortunate to basically have the Amex handed to us on a plate by Bloom. It also has to be remembered though, that during the 13 year struggle to get permission of fit to be built, we still paid our way, with the directors taking the hit. It also meant that the managers at Withdean had to take a hit as they were not able to spend as they liked and had to sell when it was necessary to do so. This is different to the model pursued by other clubs who just spent anyway, and then took administration as a way of getting out of paying creditors.

you can't include Palace in that unless you thought SJ had a cunning plan to turn his 32m into 320K.

 

[Hotchilidog]

you can't include Palace in that unless you thought SJ had a cunning plan to turn his 32m into 320K.

I was naming no names. Just pointing out that we have not gone into administration despite being in the financial mire for more than a decade, and also noting that managers have had to go without in regard to players because we did not have the money to spend.

Funnily enough this did not stop us winning consecutive titles, a playoff final and achieving our highest league position for decades, all on a shoestring budget.

I do agree with you previous point that football is screwed financially at the moment, unless someone finally says no to paying superstar wages to mediocre talent.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

We are indeed fortunate to basically have the Amex handed to us on a plate by Bloom. It also has to be remembered though, that during the 13 year struggle to get permission of fit to be built, we still paid our way, with the directors taking the hit. It also meant that the managers at Withdean had to take a hit as they were not able to spend as they liked and had to sell when it was necessary to do so. This is different to the model pursued by other clubs who just spent anyway, and then took administration as a way of getting out of paying creditors.

Bloom's gift of the stadium was very welcome and can be looked at as karma repaying us back for Archer.

One chairman sells everything. Another subsequent chairman decides to gift it back.

 

[Creaky]

I was naming no names. Just pointing out that we have not gone into administration despite being in the financial mire for more than a decade, and also noting that managers have had to go without in regard to players because we did not have the money to spend.

Funnily enough this did not stop us winning consecutive titles, a playoff final and achieving our highest league position for decades, all on a shoestring budget.

I do agree with you previous point that football is screwed financially at the moment, unless someone finally says no to paying superstar wages to mediocre talent.

I'll probably get accused of being a closet CP fan, (again), for saying that we have been lucky.

Lucky that Archer didn't see administration as a way of getting yet more money out of the club, lucky that someone as strong and determined as Dick Knight, and others, stepped up to the plate to keep the club running with limited resources, lucky that a fan like Tony Bloom was willing, and most importantly able, to pump into the club millions of pounds putting it into the position we are today.

Nothing to do with the club being on a higher moral level than other clubs.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I'll probably get accused of being a closet CP fan, (again), for saying that we have been lucky.

Lucky that Archer didn't see administration as a way of getting yet more money out of the club, lucky that someone as strong and determined as Dick Knight, and others, stepped up to the plate to keep the club running with limited resources, lucky that a fan like Tony Bloom was willing, and most importantly able, to pump into the club millions of pounds putting it into the position we are today.

Nothing to do with the club being on a higher moral level than other clubs.

I don't think there was such a thing as administration in the Archer days. Maybe wrong

 

[EDS]

I said in my reply to your trolling post.

So anything you do not agree with is trolling, not much point in responding when you can talk to your fellow deluded, oh whoa is me friends and get the answers you only want to hear.

****

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

I don't think there was such a thing as administration in the Archer days. Maybe wrong

There wasn't. The club would have been wound up and if no-one had noticed the club's articles of association had been changed Archer would have pocketed any money left over after the creditors had been paid.

 

[Hotchilidog]

I'll probably get accused of being a closet CP fan, (again), for saying that we have been lucky.

Lucky that Archer didn't see administration as a way of getting yet more money out of the club, lucky that someone as strong and determined as Dick Knight, and others, stepped up to the plate to keep the club running with limited resources, lucky that a fan like Tony Bloom was willing, and most importantly able, to pump into the club millions of pounds putting it into the position we are today.

Nothing to do with the club being on a higher moral level than other clubs.

You make your own luck in my opinion. There was nothing lucky about Dick Knight taking control of the club, he fought for it, then he and the board kept the club going through it's darkest days because they believed in the fight. In regard to Bloom, we are indeed fortunate that he has had sufficient funds to bankroll everything since the credit crunch, but his family have been part of the lifeblood of this club for decades.

 

[casbom]

I don't think there was such a thing as administration in the Archer days. Maybe wrong

Yes there was, I'm sure I read in the argus back then that one of them (can't remember which one, either Stanley or Archer) actually wanted to go into administration but the other one said no.